In this episode, I dive deep with veteran pastor and acclaimed author Carlton Coon to explore the integral relationship between effective discipleship and church leadership. Carlton shares his insights on nurturing personal growth in leaders, the pivotal role of continuous learning, and how these elements drive church expansion and success. With decades of experience in various leadership capacities, he offers valuable strategies and personal anecdotes on developing leaders and fostering a thriving church environment. Whether you're a ministry leader or someone interested in the dynamics of organizational development, this episode provides essential wisdom on cultivating success through focused discipleship and personal advancement.
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Transcript
The situation or or the challenge I think is that many times as a pastor we decide, Well, pastor now. I have arrived, but the truth of the matter is that is that if we don't keep growing ourselves. If we don't keep being critical in our thinking about our own efforts. If we don't ever once in a while, listen to sales preach or watch a video of our sales preaching, which is and Can be painful, we're destined to make the same mistakes, and we don't ever improve at what we're doing. Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast.
I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need to grow your leadership effectiveness and enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session so you don't miss a single episode. I'd all so greatly appreciate any reviews, likes and shares that you can give me. It just helps me extend my reach to more people. So leaders, I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaos, you're struggling to feel effective and you're just not enjoying leadership as much as you could be.
And so to help you After many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian leader blueprint, they'll guide you to find clarity, in your life and leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life. It'll help you see yourself more clearly to le bridge strengths, and you'll produce more productive relationships. It's a step by step guide to leadership transformation, bridge And I have that in 2 formats now. I have a free short guide that you can find on ryan Franklin dot org.
And I have a book, the Christian leader blueprint, and you can find that in any format including an audiobook book wherever you buy your books. I have a few more... Things on my website that you may be interested in so just head on over to Ryan franklin dot org and check it all out. And now, let's get to our session. Or We're joined today by a friend of mine, and a man that I've looked up to for many years.
His name is Carlton Ko. Has done a wide range of leadership roles in the church, including for many years. He was the director of North America missions. For the United Coastal Church International. Currently, he is a bi vocational c pastor in Springfield, Missouri, and He was most recently asked to lead the launch of a new Upc ministry called Sage, which is ministry that is focused on the 55 plus.
Age group. And for most of his ministry, including what he's focused on today, he has had 2 main focuses, with his ministry and with his over 40 books that he's written. The first thing is is he's he's focused on establishing processes and concepts to make disciples. And then the second thing, he's had a great focus of growth, growth personally, growth ministerial, growth and leadership, local church growth, And those are the things in ministry that are his heartbeat, and that's why I wanted to have him on the show to date, to talk to the Christian leader made simple audience. I just wanna mention as well.
He's got 2 sons and 3 grandkids that also have his heart. So brother Ko, welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. Hey, Ryan. It's great to be on your podcast today considered a real honor. And I appreciate, your consistency.
I appreciate the effort and, the the concepts that you're presenting are basically, practical, and that's leadership made simple, which is the real target of all of this. So I appreciate that Things sometimes we over complicate things, and you're trying your best to simplify. I, I am trying my best. Sometimes and sometimes it's complicated to me. But, hopefully, I'm coming coming across as as a simplified version of other the things that I'm taken in.
So thank you for us. Appreciate that. As long as we're dealing with people, it's not always gonna be simple as for sure that that is very true. Very true. I've got I've got a list of questions I wanna ask you, but before we get into the meat of that interview, of the of the questions.
I know I just gave a very small portion of your bio. You've done many, many things throughout your tenure but I I just wanna ask you, what what what would you be willing to tell us something, about you that most people may would not know about your history, something that would be interesting. You have anything that that you could tell us I enjoy reading murder mysteries. I've got most of Va the Christie wrapped up. I I have difficulty.
To be honest have difficulty relaxing, and I always enjoy competitive sports, but these days other than golf at a thing or 2 like that, to and I'm not a good golfer so that kinda of takes a competitive angle anyhow. I have to just compete against myself, but casual reading is is good for me as far as just a way to relax. And so I doubt most folks and they see me reading on the ipad or whatever they think I'm reading some, deep theological tone, but I'm probably doing the Abc b murders or whatever. That's interesting. Yet.
That is surprising, and I would have never guessed that about you, but that's That's a that's a pretty neat tidbit bed about you. So thank you for sharing that. It may give somebody else approval to go get a murder mystery to read instead... Their new commentary on the book of acts or whatever. That's right.
That's right. So Brother ko you're a leading voice for disciples ship. I would I would say that you're very much a leading voice. You've written over 42 books on the subject of disciples ship and other topics. But with your extensive experience in church leadership and development.
How does disciples ship and personal growth for a leader sort of intersect. Disciples ship and personal growth. Is it 1 in the same? Is there differences? What's...
When unpack just a little bit for us. I I think it's... I think in some ways 1 of the same. In other otherwise, it's very different. Both of those are both of them involve learning and then applying what is what is learned, the the difference is this that everybody who is a disciple of Christ is not a leader, reach that point, everybody in the body of Christ should be serving.
Everybody in the body of Christ should be doing something. But the book of Romans teaches, there are certain motivational gifts that some of us are leaders, teachers, others have various other gifts of ministry and service. So What when I think about converts coming into the church, we take them through the process conversion, and then equip them with some basic understanding of how to live for god and practice some devotion and habits that would be pleasing to the Lord, But then they're... When when they've completed that, and we find a place of service for them, then there is a diver path that now we want that person if they're called to be a teacher or if God's gifted them to be a teacher. And their passion is junior high kids that they be the best that they can be at that.
On the other hand, there's this handful of people who God has put in them the motivational gift of leadership and Mh. And they continue a different path, but they're growing their leadership. In regard to disciples I think that 1 of the things we have to... We really have to think about is that disciples ship never ends. That a disciple is 1 who learns and applies.
And I've been safe filled with a holy ghost for a few years now. I'm still learning. I need to keep learning. I want to always be a learner, and to be a student of God to be a student of Christ to know him is such a powerful thing. But then as a leader, I also need to develop that aspect of my life too and continue to grow as a leader.
Yeah. Absolutely. So you've said that if if if we can grow as a pastor, and I'm and I think I'm quoting you here, if we can grow as a pastor, the pastor will grow the church. There's there's no need to talk about church growth. This is a continuation of your quote.
There's no need to talk about church growth unless we address preacher growth. I love that quote. I read that, it really stuck out... Stuck out to me. Can you just sort of expo on this?
And expo on what you were just saying even in that regard. I I'm III absolutely believe that that's the truth and Mh. I I remember T 10 is saying pretty often that you can give someone who can lead 70 people they can be put in a situation where they start out with 300 and give it a few months. They'll have it to 70. On the other hand, you can give someone who can lead 300, give them 50 people, and given them time, they will be leading 300 people.
And III just see it. And the situation or or the challenge, I think is that many times, as a pastor, we decide, well, I'm pastor now. I have arrived, but the truth of the matter is that is that if we don't keep growing ourselves. If we don't keep being critical in our thinking about our own efforts, if we don't ever once in a while, listen to our sales preach, or watch a video of our sales preaching, which is... And I can be painful we're destined to make the same mistakes, and we don't ever improve at what we're doing.
When when begin to talk about pastor, the pasture has ace has a responsible. They're going to be in my estimation, the gatekeeper of growth the book of Ezekiel, I believe is the 30 fourth chapter. There is an indictment of the shepherd of Israel. And the Lord's indictment of them is basically that they're serving for their own benefit. And after his indictment, he says, okay.
And I'm para obviously He says I'm going to give you Shepherd. I'm going to provide shepherd for you he's talk innovation of it. I'm going to provide you shepherd who will feed you. They will leave the flock. They will heal those who are hurting, and they will seek those who are wandering.
So And in my estimation that is the clearest biblical definition of what a pastor is to do 4 things. You cole asked me about financial advice. I'm not gonna provide that. That's not in my job description. There quite a few other things.
Matter of fact, a whole lot of things are not in my job descriptions of the pastor, But I want to be better next year at feeding the flock than I was this year. And I want to be better at leading the flock than I was last year. I want to be better at seeking those were hurting, or are seeking the wandering and healing the hurting than I have been in the past. So it's this constant growth, and in the professional world attorneys, doctors, teachers, academics require, continue education. They require people to continue to grow and develop and learn new things, and I I feel strongly.
That that that concept, that idea of growing ourselves. Is such a vital part of of growing a congregation. And 1 of the things I've seen we We took a church that was just a baby church a few months old, and we were there 8 years, grew it to 80. And that was 30 almost 40 years ago, and it was there in Eastern Louisiana, a culture diverse congregation. We we're 30 percent African American, by the time that we left, great people, ahead of its time as far as cultural diversity was concerned.
Came to Springfield was the church of about 80, and we're here 12 years grew to 300 plus. This last pastor when we arrived there we're about 40 folks. And and today, there be a hundred... Hundred plus perhaps a little over. That that middle group that I'm talking about the 1 where they were aid in grew to 300.
The most significant growth there, Ryan had to be in me. I had to change. But And if I didn't grow and change, we were going to be s. We we just couldn't go any further, and it would be me who was hindering that ongoing growth. So I had to always be thinking...
Or I realized I had to always be thinking about what's the next step look like? What what do we need to do to be equipped to you know, I set a goal for the church that we're gonna 1 a month, and That sounds like nothing, but it took a year or so to get there even then it was hit you if if I don't... If you would allow me to interrupt you here. Sure. I'd love to hear a little bit about what that next step was for you.
What what did you feel like for you to be able to grow that church from 80 to over 300. What needed the change within you? Well, as I look back at it, the first thing is I had to become keenly att to the need for and basic systems that that just happened, the the opposite of having systems, is chaos. Chaos is random. What I want is that every visitor who came to our church.
Was going to have the same experience. Whether they came Wednesday or Sunday or they came to Sunday before Christmas or Easter and then the follow up to them was going to be the same. So I had to realize and that work, can't be done from the pulpit. And that's hard work. I don't particularly care for that kind of work.
But III realized that I had to have these systems that were sustainable, and that I could develop people to take them on. And I would hold her hands for a year or 2, and then it was theirs. I I would be with them, check in on them with disciples ship. I thought it was so important that I met with our disciples ship director every week. That was the first thing.
The the second thing that I So you were... So you were del authority and leadership. Yeah. And I hour those meters. And.
Know, my my approach to leaders. I'll never throw you under the bus publicly. You know, if if you do something that's just dumb, I'll stand alone besides you, now, we'll have a conversation 1 on 1. When it hits over if if it's if it's needed. But that's...
You just count on me always being there alongside of you. The, yeah, delegation, and, again, as as part of growing as a leader delegation as to learn behavior. And Yeah. There's just a lot on the internet about how to delegate. And and doing it doing it right, getting to a point and, of course, for us that involved not just a system for disciple making, but also a system in a process we're continually dealing with our leadership team, keeping all of us on the same page, keeping us focus.
The the the other thing that I think and this goes back us supposed to delegation. I heard brother, an hard say it in a number of times that that he spent his pastor oil ministry has spent his time as as a district superintendent. Now is general superintendent always trying to work himself out of a job. And says he got rid of something. But in the process, you ask about change.
1 of the things that I had to do is turn loose of things that I liked doing because in retrospect, they were a waste of my time. My time could be better used doing something else rather than going to Sam's by the paper goods, and that 1 were of the things I like. But, I did kinda enjoy going to the mailbox and getting the mail and seeing what was coming through. And... But I decided 1 day enough, you know, we got...
Staff people here, they can go to mailbox and open and if there's something for me, they'll bring it to me. So you know, it's just those little those little things of of recognizing I've got to I've gotta do this different and turning loose of things in order to pick up some other things. It makes a lot of sense. So I'm hearing for you personally, sort of your personal journey of growth revolved around developing processes that's... That would be the first thing.
2 would be effective delegation, delegation of of anywhere from small tasks to even entire leadership roles and really in its essence being able to embrace change, being able to change the way that you're thinking about all of these things. Yeah. Leadership is being a change agent, and mh. If we don't embrace change, if we're not willing to change ourselves, then we're not gonna be very effective change agents for the entirety of the group, that we're working with, and that's that's so key if person's just confident and comfortable with staying as they are then they can't be a change agent for anybody else. Yeah.
You know, 1 of the things and and you referenced this. I... I strongly believed in empowering our leaders. And we had a we had a solid structure, job descriptions, Annual plans, annual planning retreat monthly meetings, the the staff meetings once a week, All that good stuff that many of us don't particularly enjoy, but they're necessary. They're absolutely necessary.
If I was just about to mention, when you said, not, I don't particularly enjoy them. Those are not really your strengths. Right? No. Those are things that you've had to grow and develop and Yep.
Even though they're not your strength. I know you personally, you're not... A highly structured person yet you do a lot of structured things. You force yourself to really do a lot of structured things, and that's that's a really, I would imagine a lot of people find selves in that same place. Yeah.
Well, it's amazing what God gets done. Accident, but some I was, I guess. Is 1 way to look at it. Well, as I realized. It's it's personalities and and you're you know, you've got some very strong strengths in particular areas, but you've learned you've you've developed yourself and allowed yourself to be systematic and structured for the better for the betterment of the church and the betterment of of what you're trying to accomplish.
Yeah. You know if if if I can... This is the old time daytime thing. And I went back to paper a while back. And if I if I can begin my morning with a list of the 5 or 6 things that I'm going to accomplish, the next day.
That list having been written out the night before. I get... I don't know, hundreds of times more duh then if I just start saying what what am I gonna do with today. Yeah. You're given vision to your to your next day.
Yeah. That's simple. But it it gets things done. Well, I think people over complicate it sometimes and and, you know, need need to feel like they need to go read books on this stuff and and really... No.
Just what do what do you... What's the 5 things you need to do the next day? Yeah. Yeah. Or what's the are you gonna manage your time?
Exactly. What's the 15 things? That I wanna accomplish this week, for instance. And, you know, and and having... Giving yourself or maybe it's 8 things or whatever whatever your limit is, but you're giving yourself a little bit of vision for your week or for your next day and make a huge impact in your productivity.
I don't care what's your personality with you guys. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that term of vision for the next day. I've never really thought about it and in that frame, but I I like that and I'll use it because I I think that advances that advances the matter of the next day to have greater significance.
You know, if for not careful, our vision is is out there somewhere. It's abstract almost. But but this connects tomorrow with that long term that long term vision. And I can't get there if I don't take care of tomorrow. And, you know, 1 of the things I...
I tried to occasionally ask younger pastors is okay, guys. What are you doing this week? That will make a difference. A year from that. Mh.
And if we don't intentionally make decisions that direction, it doesn't happen. We're gonna wake up a year from now and not have made any progress or maybe even reg rest if we're not intentionally, making steps in that direction. We don't wanna grow so important. 1 of the scariest moments I had as a pass. But are 1 of those wake up moments.
Was when I was sitting in my office at Truth T and I was doing a little intros inspection, and I I asked myself, okay. What do the people in this church who I lead? What are they doing more effectively for Christ today than they did a year ago. And I realized that that I had spent too much time kind of pin bowling my way through the year. And you know how...
This is probably of the poorest of analog, but but thin ball machine, the old timing ones made a lot of noise and and a lot of lights splashing and all the rest, but there really wasn't much done, on the other hand, a bowling ball. Go straight to the point, and it may walk down all the pins or it may knock down, just just too, but it's very focused and what its objective is, and I realized that in my administering, I I was spending too much time bouncing back and forth instead of spending time focusing period perhaps, on this is the way to have a daily devotion. And we assume people know things like that. But when you really be begin to investigate, they don't know how to have a personal devotion. And Mh.
Perhaps under assess prayer, any number of other things. And with that realization, it brought another change in ministry that, okay. Slow down and give people things that will make them better christians a year from now than what they are today. So just to just to kinda bring that to, a little bit more detail in your view, what are the essential daily practices and habits that a leader should engage in to maintain effective disciples ship for themselves. I know you mentioned prayer there Yeah.
What's some other things that you would do on a consistent basis daily or weekly? You know, 1 1 of the things that that... That I feel is is important is ongoing reading on the on the topic of leadership. And I've read coo and pasta material and, you know, any number of other books driving on chaos and and, different things that address leadership from a corporate position and you learn a lot from from those perspective. But So reading is 1.
The second. What is... What if someone doesn't like reading. You you love reading, obviously, you do it for fun. Yeah.
What if what if somebody struggles to read? Well, there's this thing called audio books that they do now. That... And I take advantage of that. You know, I'll listen to books on audio that I would never read.
Just. Just not in my interest, but for some reason, I will listen to them and and gain from them. The the other thing that I think people can do these days that 1 available when I was younger and many are taking advantage of it is. The online training that's available Youtube or or through the work that you do, because all of the work that you do, the work that I do this. So the other thing that I think is important for us is is is what I call digging the word of God, where that we're we're not just casually reading it, but we spend time with a paragraph.
I I... So I did the read the bible through in a year, and I I would never condemn that in any way. But I realized that reading 5 chapters a day, I were really 1 comprehend handing a lot. And so when I talk about digging the word I'm talking about taking 1 paragraph or 2 paragraph scripture and discovering what it says, asking questions of that text, and much of my preaching and teaching is informed is developed by that period of digging into the word of God. And I see that as a base daily benefit or a daily necessity.
Is somehow getting a little bit beyond just the casual encounter with the scripture. Yeah. Makes a makes a great deal of difference in our spiritual life. Yeah. So what are some some things that maybe you've encountered?
Personally or that you've seen in your tenure that, are are challenges that people would encounter in their personal growth. And and how have you personally overcome those these things or how have you coached others? Yeah to overcome those things. Well, if we if we just... If we...
And I'm gonna frame this from 2 different directions. 1 is just it is the challenges of someone who is wanting to be a disciple. They're wanting to grow in Christ. Mh. The the things that they're going to have to address in order to really get that done is You can't allocate time twice.
So they're going to have to pull some time from somewhere and say, okay, this 30 minutes. This period of time, I'm going to, give to the lord, and then the avoidance of distractions and third, a sense of here's where I wanna go. Here's here's my destiny at this, but here's my destination. At this particular point in time, not wandering all over the place. But here's what I'm wanting to grow in.
Here's what I'm and knowing what that is. And then as they advance in disciples ship, Okay, person, has a passion for youth ministry, and their their gifting is service. But whether they're teaching or serving if their passion is dealing with teenagers, they really need to do some work on understanding teenagers. Yeah. And so it's this personal growth and realization that the growth has to happen from a leadership, perspective.
I I think I think the greatest challenges are number 1, I fair to understand leadership. That leadership is influence. It's not position, not title. Correct. But we we lead people as we influence them.
And I I've seen people to that position, and they accomplished very little. They were not able to bring people along behind them. That's not leadership regardless of what the title is. It's not leadership. On the other hand of seeing people who had no title.
But they were able to effectively influence other people. So I I think that's the first challenge is recognizing what leadership is and then what it is. And then beyond that, to me, it's... It goes back to the practical simple things. That, you know, Neo is an incredible case study of leadership.
And Neo did several things that effective leaders do. And the first he was a problem solved. He came to Jerusalem, and he did and in less than 2 months, what they've been trying to do for 70 years. So here's a problem solved. But the second thing that Ne, he took a personal interest in people.
It's interesting to read the book of the amount thinking about the various people that he mentions. So you was interested in where they lived, eventually had them building walls near their own homes. And and that's that's part of gaining influence is being interested in the other person. Really thinking about them their life. And, you know, we wanna see leadership as something that happens, in a grand fashion from behind a podium or a pulpit or a general conference service or because of the times event or or whatever, But the truth of the matter is that is that we lead people by influencing them 1 at a time.
And the person who was listening to us, in some grand setting, they may or may not. But now if we can break that down to a smaller group, you get a much greater buy in. Than from the mass perspective. And I think that that often gets overlooked is is those simple things. And it doesn't take a lot to build your influence with people, but you have to do those little things that that make a difference.
It takes relationship. Right? Exactly. Exactly. And I'm an introvert, and I'm an.
So so anything I know about anything that I have in regard people skills pretty well learned behavior. And there are a lot of us probably who fit in this particular thing. But, I I realized that there were some key things I could do. That would make a huge difference in the... And and my ability to be an influencer in in the lives of people that I cared about was interested.
I'm putting you on the spot here a little bit, But is is there... Particular things that that stand out to you that you developed yourself in to make yourself more of a people person? Well, I I watched people who were better at this than than I was. I watched student in, Ga Mango was not he was on a preacher preacher. I guess is 1 way to put it.
But Ga Man had had people skills and worked at connecting to people. And here is the yankee in this southern town, and he passed in the whole city, basically. Yeah. I I watched how he operated a watch how. Tom Tin did the same.
And and I I know that that that's wearing. I doubt that Ga mango naturally, an ex. He might be. But but they realized here some things I have to do if I'm going to connect with people. And I watch and I learned and I applied, and, you know, I the church part of the the...
The pastor and pastor wife there would use this phrase often, and love you. I love your sister Mango still be. I love your baby but love you more. And you know, that 1 part of the cultural thinking, but I actually got in front of a mirror and practiced that pray, saying it to people. Because it it was important.
I loved them, but being able to express that? Was a learned behavior. And it wasn't authentic. It was just being able to... Express that.
That's being able to express it exactly. And and, you know, just learning how to have a conversation learning how to invite people to talk about themselves. If you can let people talk about themselves, you know, the conversation can go on for a very long time. Without me having to say much at all. Those types of things.
And then and some of this, I eventually put a book called pastor hacks. But... And I mentioned this to you. Just little things that I learned, about dealing with people that made made just a huge difference. I learn and still use the power of a handwritten note.
With today's technology, it's interesting the most valuable form of communication is a handwritten note. My handwriting is terrible, interesting but the fact that I wrote it, and, you know, it might be that we're having some event where the kids get the same on a mid week or something. And if I write a note to some 6 year old in chair of his parents Well, I'm writing it to him. It's gonna end up on his bulletin board or on the refrigerator, but his parents are going to be the ones who read it to him. Especially with my handwriting.
And but the next time that kid sees me. Is he's you wanna come running and say, after I got your I got your note the other day. Those little things. Yes, they take work but the return on that investment is beyond the ability to comprehend. It last a lifetime.
And so just those kinds of of approaches in dealing with people. Help me with that. You know, I've never build influence. I'll never big relation fuzzy, you know, standing in line to I don't never I don't ever have to go to another party to be very happy. But, you know, occasionally were dragged into such things.
We have people at the church who do hospital visits. And and when I had several people on staff who were part of the pastor oil team, I I would tell them now now folks, if 1 of the other pastors comes to visit and in the hospital don't expect me that day. And if you do see me that day, you're much... Sicker than what they have told you you are. So I delegated it to them.
But at the same time, I wanted them to know... I wanted to know that they were being cared for, Yeah. So you are a c pastor currently. You you went from organizational style leadership to back to pastor and something you enjoy and love. I would assume we have not had this conversation, but I would assume that you have a leadership growth strategy with the individuals in your church.
It's not a large church, but it's a decent sized church, and I'm... And and I would imagine that you've started to you know, sort of bringing in an organizational style and and and start growing people. What strategies are you currently using to grow the leaders. Yeah. And and and here's the struggle that I see.
You've got people that are you know, juggling, preaching Sermon, dealing with counseling, dealing with, you know, this and that and having parties for, you know, this ministry or a party, you know. So leadership growth oftentimes gets put to the back burner. Right. So what what are some strategies that you use to kinda work that into your everyday church involvement? Well, 1 of the things that...
1 of the things that I did going back to the systems that we used at Truth tab was was, we had a we had a monthly leadership training session. Lasted 45 minutes, and we went from that straight into our earlier leadership meeting for that month. Which all department heads were to be at the leadership meeting and were to be at the training. I opened up the leadership training to anybody that wanted to come, and so we would have developing leaders come, and then there would be times when I would say to someone, who they might even be 13 years old, but I saw something in them. I would say to them, I want you to start coming to our leadership training sessions.
And so there were certain people who I kinda put the pressure on to b there. But it was it was open to anybody that wanted to come. To me to me, the leadership training part of ministry is equivalent to the training of the 12 that Jesus did. And he left behind a group of men who were prepared to continue what he had started. To me, the...
What 1 of the greatest points in ministry is when the local church, I call in. They say, you know, we we're a we're had an incredible Sunday pastor. We... You... We we didn't know you were weren't there.
Well, that's that's gratifying because it means that we've developed people and we develop. Concepts and and a mindset that is not dependent upon me being present. I I think that leadership training is more important than the mid week service. And I, as a matter of fact, when we moved in the pasture we're now, there was not really a leadership structure that was not a leadership. Concept in place, everything kind of flowed through 1 person or and good people is just that's the what they had seen done.
So I didn't have leaders, so I just took I took my mid weeks and at least once a month, sometimes twice and even more I suppose. I would do leadership training in my my week because I I had to get those people, Thinking different. I had to get them where that they weren't looking to me to make every decision. I wanted I wanted the crane to rise to the top, and the ones who had the gifting and the capability to be leaders I wanted and it took... It probably took 3 years, I guess.
Before they realized, you know, if I make a decision, pastor not gonna swat me down, You know, he's gonna he's gonna under girl and support and if there's something wrong. He's going to coach me and help me to see it in a little different light. And and and so, you know, I just... And and I... It it frustrate me a little.
That every pastor does not take that responsibility, of the training of the poll, if we, Ab b Bruce wrote an incredible training of the play where he focuses on what Jesus put into his... Disciples, and it's not totally an easy read. But if we could see our responsibility, you know, Paul told Timothy, Take what I have given you, and I'm para for, give it to other faithful for men who will give it to other faithful for men, and the way it's written in the Greek text if I understand right, it it was to be a perpetual ongoing thing. Well, if I don't take what I have been given and put it into someone else, then it dies with me. It it ends.
I I become a dead sea. And the same is true for all of our pastors, and we have some. I'm sure who would say Well, I'm just not a leader. Well, if you're a pastor you are a leader, you're leading the flock, you're responsible to lead the flock. So you've got to have something inside of you that...
And if it's just that 1 tall leadership, then then put it into the hands of of someone who can develop it and help you to grow it. That's what Jesus said to the... Or the master said to the 1 man who had just you should have taken it to someone who would help you grow it. You know, to me, developing leaders around us, and I borrow John Maxwell statement, the leaders around us are the people who multiplex multiplies. And that's where church growth, really begins to happen is when I'm not the only 1 on message, but the people who are key to the church are saying the same things I'm saying.
They share my vision. Our mission statement they've heard often enough that it's just locked in their brain. They can... Start reciting it when they hear it started. Those types of things determine what what's going to happen.
And again, I'm... I appreciate what you're doing with developing leaders and and and the concepts that you're giving because that's that's so necessary, but it's got to flow down down down and to every person has potentially lead. I love hearing the the passion within your voice about church and leadership and the importance of leadership... And I would say, just to just to sort of echo what you're saying, you know, leadership is just as prominent in in the book of acts in the start of the church is anything else that we could teach on. Yep very it's a it's a very important thing.
I love the fact that you were that you were using Wednesday nights, 1... At least 1 service a a month on Wednesday nights. That's a that's a, phenomenal thing and shows just how important that was for the earlier part of your of your church. Yeah. But if we don't develop leaders, we're we're we're just stuck where where 1 guy doing it all.
And Yeah. You know, my my approach to leadership within the church body is that if you leave a ministry. If you leave the children's ministry. Then you leave the children's ministry. And Yeah.
And if there is an issue that comes to me, it needs to be a big issue. I'm I'm not gonna hand out some to school literature. I'm not going to make decisions about now. I wanna I wanna be involved in the decision about. What teachers in a classroom.
I wanna sign off privilege on that. But I'm not gonna micro manage it. I'm just you know, that's... Because that's that's their ministry. Needs to be their ministry.
Right. And right. And so lets me step back and manage and lead the leaders. So before we continue on with the podcast, this episode is brought to you by Christian leader community coaching. Are you a christian leader experiencing low productivity or chaotic lifestyle, and maybe you're overwhelmed and just unsure of what it's gonna take to create growth in your life.
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You've seen a lot of water going the bridge and the way that we do ministry the approaches. How do you see the approach to ministry personal leadership development, sort of evolving in the church? Or are there areas or methods that you believe are gonna be more important in training future leaders? Well, I I and and once... I I think I see it evolving and what I see evolving is that there are plenty of resources now.
For people who want to grow and develop, and improve their leadership. When when I was your age and younger, there really wasn't, you know, you you might go to a seminar, or you red, but that was kind of it. I was blessed by some of the time that I was working in the corporate world that they provided me very strong leadership training, very strong administration, training. Training. And and taking those principles and then applying them to the work of god was such an important thing to realize that these things matter.
I think the frustration that I have, and you and I probably share this is that despite all of the content, all of the ideas, all of the concepts, all of the challenges that exist on Youtube or in books or in any other means that there are far too many who are content to do business as usual. So... Yeah. I I see... See some people taking it and really going with the thing.
And then I see others who could take. And really advance to another level, but they're content to do business as usual. And So the second parts frustrating, and I don't know that there's a place to fit because you... That there's a way to fix that because you have to have the na a B. You have to have that ambition to improve yourself, Not improve them, but improve yourself.
And as I improved, and my ability to help them. So... But I see the use of the Internet, I see the use of online training, as... Covid has just escalated that possibility. It's been the process along.
The other thing I see and this kinda fits in with the Sage ministry that I've been. This I... I see a number of places, and I I... I'll talk about preacher now that an older preacher has a a group of young preacher that he works with. And answers questions far as spends time with and mentorship.
To me that pans things down from generation to generation. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. The Covid has...
You know, as you as you well, know, I've... Started a community coaching program online, have little over a hundred people in it right now And I've I've quickly found that it's not for everyone. Right, you know, not everybody can engage in in that online sort of relationships and and learning that that is there. But for those that that can engage and can embrace that technology and and and really dive into it head first. It has really made a difference in a lot of people's lives and you know, not everybody that's in the community is is truly engaging.
Their finding out that, you know, maybe this is not for me or whatever, which is fine. You but there are AAA good solid group of people that are greatly learning and growing, through the used to of that sort of technology. Yeah. And and I think that's... I think that's the reality the the reason some don't take hold.
And I'm gonna give some loopholes here. Is the challenge of time. Yeah. But I also think that there are many people who they get into it and realize that okay, I hear what he's saying, but and I hear what my group and the community saying, but this is gonna be a lot of work. Lot I of work.
And I really like. Spending free hours getting ready to preach on Sunday and free hours getting ready to teach mid week and that I can't do it from behind the pulpit. What what they're talking. And, you know, again, Yeah. I think that's unfortunate because I think it limits what the absolutely.
And I found that if people would just engage with what they can engage with. You know, if it's if it's, for instance, 1 video of 1 course, a week, Right and just do the application guides. And or if you know, it doesn't even have to be in the community, in in in general, could be, take 1 section of a book, a week and read that section and and sort of engage in the content of that section. You know, that can make a huge difference over time over 52 weeks in a year, in, like, a huge difference in a person's life if they will just engage in some form of fashion, Yep. In personal growth.
Well, and and that goes, I think to to an idea that people people look at someone and they say, wow, they've got it together. I can't ever be where they are. I can't ever be like that person, but that there there's a concept in in in Japanese corporate in the Japanese corporate world called cas. And the idea of cas is that you... Whatever you're doing, whatever your processes are.
You improve it 1 tiny bit. And you depend on situation. You may improve 1 bit a month or 1 bit a quarter, but they're not challenging me to move from this to this and and immediately. But instead, it's the realization that if we do tiny things moving forward, that we we eventually looked back and say, wow. How how did I get here?
And I... That's what I'd like to see. What you just described. What... I'd like to see happen with people is as, you know, you can't get there overnight, but you can work that direction.
Well, I've got I've got 2 quick questions that I wanna wrap up with as we bring it to a close today. You've been in a large variety of leadership roles, and I I would say, of what I know, the highest leadership role that you've been in was the director of North American missions. Did that for many years, Not sure how many, but many years. You've been a pastor as well for many years and and you've served in a large variety of other leadership roles. What has been of all of those things.
What's been the most challenging role and why. Well, each each just had its own challenges obviously. The... When we came pastor of truth Tab ankle, it it was a church that was in chaos, and I didn't know it. I dealt with dealt in a church of what would eventually settle out to be just a little over a hundred by the time everybody came back that that vanished while they were without a pastor, in in 2 years I dealt with 13 moral cases of sexual sin of sometime.
Wow. That's... It hold the end. You don't know that going in. And it became director North american commissions.
I'm I'm as different from my predecessor jack Cunningham as daylight is from dark, and and there were people who anticipated a continuation of the same. Well, I knew going in that there would not be a continuation of the say. I felt like I was there to do about 4 things. And 2 of them were not particularly easy to get accomplished because it it did involve some pushing some buttons for change. But, you know, I managed first 3 or 4 years of that was just kind of miserable, but because it it was it was me having to put my stamp on it.
Me having to put I'm I'm stubborn. I'm not gonna, you know, I had to communicate that that I'm not not flexible yet there's some things that we're just locked in on that this is the direction we're going for the Cutting house way not wrong way. Mine's not necessarily the right way. So just a different way. So that was a challenge.
When we stepped in the pasture, we're in now, we stepped from a setting where that I had great administrative and operational support. Our previous church had had we'd reached a point where we had 2 additional pastors, 1 staff evangelist, and I guess 4 secretaries, part time or full time. So I had plenty of help there, and I could keep them pretty busy. I could keep them this. Well, we've come to this pasture where that number 1, there is no administrative support.
So I'm back if a letter is going to be typed, I'm the guy typing it if if if the card is going to be male Nor going to be the ones who who mail it. Second component of that was not having... Really not having anybody in the group who understood a leadership at all and eager learn some of them. Now we lost over half of what was there, but I knew that was gonna happen before we ever became pastor. So each of these are their own unique challenges and each required, different...
A different response. You, truth tara just... It was just soldier on and vision and in the process of several years developing... Okay. Here's what we are.
Here's what we're good at Here's what we're going to do. There's some things we're not going to worry about as a congregation, and I'm not gonna fret about it as a pastor. At headquarters. It was... The leads go to fly.
You just know it's coming. And so you you accept that that's part of the job description at that particular point. The last 8 or 9 years of it was a much different thing. It was... By that time, the river was flowing in a different direction, and it was going direction that I felt when needed to go.
Congregation were part of now, again, it was just flat slowing down. That was the challenge. Beyond slowing down, to get back where they were and not trying to do it overnight. I don't know if I've answered the question. I wander around for a while and am.
You did and and what it sounds like to me is is each... As you started out, each... Role has its own challenges, and you're having to figure out... You're having to grow yourself. You're having to change things within you to figure out what is what is needed to face the challenges of those leadership roles.
Yeah. So... Yeah and I think that goes to something that probably needs to be said. Every leadership role is different. And Yeah.
What 1 of the things that I've tried to tell pastors who are Okay. They're pastor. They've been effective pastors over here at Church, abc BCK. They feel that god leads them. To resign from Abc b and come over here and be pastor of Church XYZ.
The goodwill and the respect. An admiration that they have learned that they have earned the trust they've earned at Abc b doesn't it pack up in their suitcases and move with them to y z. So they're starting over. I mean, when I became pastor this congregation of about 40 folks. Yes.
I had led North American conditions. But my way of thinking my way of preaching my way of teaching the way I... The way I was focused on when the lost and making disciples as basically the only mission we had, was foreign to to that group of of people. So it was it was accepting and growing and understanding that this for me that this is where we're at, and I can't say well, That's God, I was the director of such and such. I pastor through to church of 300.
And here I am with... Y'all just need to do what I say. I have to earn that privilege. With this new group of people. So we're gonna we're gonna end with this question.
You're an author you're an avid reader you love to read? Outside of your books? What's 1 book that you think every christian leader should read, and why why do you recommend it? Well, I I think I think Oswald Sanders book spiritual leadership. Mh.
Because... He and it's not a deep book. Battle on Amazon for a buck, probably. But he really he really focuses on that Christian leadership is not running Corporate America, that it's not being Ceo of ford, that there is a spiritual component that is, and there is a biblical component of this and that we can't... Apply everything.
I I have a book, my last 2 books or part of a series on on not pastor difficult people. 1 is pastor and au. The others pastor a manipulator. I a fell Right. To me, I made a little comment about pastor and Narcissist just on Facebook, and he said, well, I tell you what I do with Arc.
I just bought them down. I'm over with it. And of course, this guy was not a pastor, and I drew his attention to that. Okay? You may be able to do that in your personal life.
But this isn't about personal life. This is pastors. And what what do you do with that person. And so we're responsible to maintain spiritual and biblical leadership as opposed to just, you know, I'll slap you down if you don't, if you don't, you know, I terminate you well, you go to terminate in Saints. You end up pulling up weed along with tears pretty quick.
So that 1 I would I would recommend for everybody. Was the name of that that book again. Spiritual leadership. By Oswald Sanders. And then I I benefited greatly from maxwell stuff, develop the early books, developing the leader within you, developing the leaders around you.
Those things really helped me think critically about leadership. Yeah. Which was important for me. Excellent. Well Brother K, this has been a tremendous tremendous conversation.
Thank you so much for giving us your time today. And allowing us to see sort of the inside of your life and and get your... Just kinda pick your brain a little bit about leadership and disciples ship of the leader. If if people wanna connect with you and and find your... I think is it 42 bucks now?
Yeah. I believe that's right. I have got link connect with you. My website's colton k dot com. And if well, I guess this will be in your show notes anyway.
My email is Carlton K, and then sr added at the end of that. And at gmail dot com. So any of that, and I'm... My goal at this point I see it as part of where we're at in this particular season of life is to take what little I've gained or what I know and who as Paul told Timothy, put it in the hands of other, faithful me and who will put it in the hands of other faithful me. So I'm I'm for the developing preacher I'm for the...
And their advocate supporter and they reach out to me at any point. And I hope do all I can to help. Absolutely. Well, thank you again, and thank you for the investment that you've made in my life personally. And through your books and content, I've I've been blessed in a tremendous way through all the things that you do.
So thanks you so this concludes our show today. This concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin. Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian leader made simple podcast.
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