Held Together by Grace: A Pastor's Fight To Save His Wife and Himself
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Held Together by Grace: A Pastor's Fight To Save His Wife and Himself

Dr. Daniel Butler shares a heart wrenching journey through personal and family challenges, focusing on his wife’s mental health struggles and how these experiences have reshaped his life and ministry. He speaks openly about the real impact of chronic stress and the importance of caring for both your emotional and physical health. For Daniel, faith isn’t just a comfort—it’s the foundation that helped him lean on community support and find hope during the toughest times. He explains how prioritizing self-care, from getting enough sleep to managing stress, isn’t a luxury but a necessity for living out God’s eternal purpose. His wisdom reminds us that by taking care of ourselves, we’re better equipped to help others, turning life’s challenges into opportunities for growth.







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Transcript


I was jittery, I was, I was just stressed. Just no sleep and not knowing where. The next explosion was. I was in a minefield constantly, unbelievable minefield. And over the many years, over the. Many years, so it got to where I calmed myself when I drive in the neighborhood and I would tell myself, okay, turn the corner, you'll see a fire truck, an ambulance or a police car. So I just came to living like that. And then when I turn the corner. And not see any of the above, then I would feel better. Oh, oh no, no, no cops here today. And just life got to be that way. Welcome to the Christian Leader Made simple podcast. I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need. Your leadership, effectiveness and enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session so you don't miss a single episode. I'd also greatly appreciate any reviews, likes and shares that you can give me. It just helps me extend my reach to more people. So leaders, I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaotic and you're struggling to feel effective and you're just not enjoying leadership as much as you could be. And so to help you, after many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian Leader Blueprint that'll guide you to find clarity. In your life and leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life, it'll help you see yourself more clearly to leverage your strengths and you'll produce more productive relationships. It's a step by step guide to leadership transformation and I have that in two formats now. I have a free short guide that you can find on ryanfranklin.org and I have a book, the Christian Leader Blueprint, and you can find that in any format, including an audiobook, wherever you buy your books. I have a few more things on my website that you may be interested in, so just head on over to ryanfranklin.org and and check it all out. And now let's get to our session. Welcome to the Christian Leader Made simple podcast. On the show today, we have a really Special guest today, Dr. Daniel Butler. Dr. Butler has a Master of Arts degree from Vanguard University and both a Master of Divinity and a Doctor of Ministry degree from Fuller Theological Seminary, which shows to me his deep desire for and his commitment to education. And currently he serves as the Bishop of the International Pentecostal Church in Bellflower, California. He's also the Chairman of the Office of Education and endorsement for UPCI and serves as a presbyter in the SoCal district. And he regularly contributes to the education of future church leaders as an adjunct professor at Urschend Graduate School of Theology. I'm sure there's a ton more that he does because he is a busy man. But, Dr. Butler, I want to say welcome to the show. Thank you. It's a joy to be with you. Brother Ryan. Thank you so much. Absolutely. I've been looking forward to this. We did a forum together in the Louisiana district back in March of last year, I believe. It was great. Yeah. We talked about doing this podcast, and we're finally here and able to make it happen. Yes. Been looking forward to it. Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. And so we're just gonna jump right in, if that's okay with you. Sounds good. We'll see where it goes, huh? Absolutely. You know, you have a very interesting story. I've heard a little bit from you, and I've heard a little bit from others, but you have an interesting story of perseverance through some very tough things in life. And it's my understanding that this has led to you being very focused on emotional and mental and physical health for you and even for others around you. As you teach and minister to people, would you be willing to just share a little bit about your journey that led to this and how it brought you to where you are today? Well, God never wastes a crisis, and God is on it all the time. He knows what's coming. He's in the middle of our lives as we dedicate to Him. And so I look over the story and realize God's been in control. And I'm glad that he has been. Even though we don't understand the ways of God, and we find it difficult. To walk with God at some times. Because it's so complex. But, yeah, the story you're referencing there, Brother Ryan, is that when we were. Pastoring, my wife and I were young pastors in Birmingham, Alabama. I took the church in 1982, and after we'd been there about three years, my wife was diagnosed with arthritis. And that was crippling arthritis. It was so severe for her to continue to live in Birmingham. An opportunity came to me to come. To headquarters, so we moved to headquarters. And then I felt like time was up there and needed to really wanted. To be back in the pastor because. That'S where my heart was. But I knew with Pam's condition, that could be a bit challenging, with the arthritis. And so with the humidity being a challenge, we decided that best place would be west of the Mississippi. And a church came open in Los. Angeles county here in Bellflower. And so we've been here for, since 1991 is when I was elected. And so the interesting part is I. Say all that to say the arthritis. Was a driving force in our life. Decisions that neither one of us thought we'd ever be in California. And it's literally what helped us be here. And then when we got here, we found incredible support for Pam. God just blessed on so many fronts. And everything I'm speaking about is a long story. So if you need to interrupt me, it's all right. So we ended up with the best of care. Her knees were replaced, her hips were. Replaced, her ankle was replaced, all done. By Dr. Lawrence Door, who is the. Inventor and the manufacturer of the prosthesis. That went into her. And of course, over the last couple decades, those recoveries, those surgeries have just become completely different. And it was amazing that the surgeon. That did all that was Pam's personal. Surgeon, the guy that changed our lives in America on those surgeries because he was honored by President Clinton as the. Number one philanthropist doctor in the world. For taking his procedures overseas and doing his clinicals overseas in free clinics, doing. About 50 surgeries as he would develop. Develop, develop, develop, develop. He never charged us a dime. He took such good care of us. Except tragically, in 1998, Pam had her. Final surgery and she requested. I don't want the, I don't want. The pain meds, I don't want those. Opioids to get me, you know, lost in an addiction. And so they, and she said, I just won't sleep at night. They said, well, there's a brand new drug out called Ambien and it's a wonderful drug. It'll help you sleep. So they put her on Ambien and. She was on it a couple years. And, and she went to the website. And found that it had a two. Year maximum usage and recommended by the manufacturer. So she called the office, said, I. Want office two years max. And I'm sorry, two week max is what the prescription called for. It says two week max. And I've been on it two years. I went off of it. So they eliminated that med. And the next night, since she was. No longer on that sleeping med, they. Gave her another sleep medicine to replace the ambient. But she didn't go to sleep that. Night, and she didn't go to sleep. The next night and didn't go to sleep the Next night. And not the next day, nor next night, nor next day, nor next night. Next week, next Nick. It was. It was 18 days without sleep that she continued. And the reason, because she got this supernatural strength. She was in a manic rage and just anxiety had just consumed her. She paced constantly. Her eyes lit up like they were on fire. And she would do things to prove her strength, like lift the table off. The floor and different stuff. And I'd try to take her to the er, and I could not, literally, I could not manhandle her. And one time I tried to take. Her, and when I. She asked where we're going, I told. Her because I was going someplace else, but it happened to be. I was on the way to the hospital first. And so when I turned at the. Intersection in the direction I wasn't supposed. To, literally in a flash, she had that door open and she was out of the car. And I was in the middle of this intersection that had seven lanes on. One side, seven lanes on the opposite. Side, five on the other two sides, and cars are just lined up everywhere, and I'm right in the middle. And I slammed the brakes on the. Car just when I saw the door opening up. And the door, you know, slid open and we skidded. And she got her feet planted onto the asphalt, and the last little stop just pushed her right up. She couldn't bend at the knees after the surgery. She couldn't have got out of the. Car, but she was able to get. Her feet down low enough. And then that car popped. The momentum pushed her up. I didn't know what to do. I'm standing. I'm sitting there in the car. I don't know what she's going to do. And so I open up my door. And I stand up and I just act like a traffic cop and did a 360 all the way around, asking. Everybody just to hold because everybody's. They're all lined up at the intersection and the lights rotating, and I don't know what she's going to do. So she walks to the back of. The car, goes to the. To the crosswalk and goes behind my. Car, crosswalk across over to the corner of the street. So I finished the U turn in. The middle street and went back and picked her up and took her home and didn't try again to get to the ER. So we did get her to Dr. Doar one time, and he said, I. Can'T deal with this. He said, this takes a psychiatrist. I said, I've been trying to get into one that's the issue. The earliest psychiatry is two weeks out, and I've got one scheduled for whatever the date was. And Door said, well, I can't do any better than that. And so, again, it was 18 days before a psychiatrist could see her. Unfortunately, bro, that then threw her into this unbelievable tailspin. And I know it was medical malpractice. We could have sued Dr. Doar, but. There'S no way I could do that to that great man. And I knew he had malpractice, but. It still didn't matter. He had been too kind to us. And so. But it spun us into 22 years of psychosis, anxiety disorder, what the psychiatrist called fixed, bizarre, irrational thoughts. And so from 20 to 22, we were in and out of four different mental hospitals. And back then, the hospitals would keep. You for a month. So she had multiple months in the. Mental hospitals, and there was just nothing to help. She still would come back wired and just a mess. And then to the fourth mental hospital. And everything's an amazing story. It just. I wish I had time to tell you the bits of the story of God's grace, how God just floated the boat, because I stood in the pulpit and on a Sunday morning, that Sunday. Morning when I had slept one hour. For the week, I'd slept one hour in that first week. And the next week, I had help come and let me sleep about an hour a night. So I was so exhausted in that pulpit, and I told the Lord, I just can't do it. I just can't do this. And I said, I feel like I'm holding on. I had the church, they're standing. I'm getting ready to read the text. But I had the church praying. So I say, lord, I feel like. I'm holding on by a thread. And I feel like the thread's about to break. I just can't do this. And God said, just turn loose. Go and turn loose. And of course, like I said, the church is praying. And I thought, lord, turn loose. Okay, what does that mean? And the answer was, just let me catch you like the eaglet that's falling. Through the sky, just flipping every which way, trying to learn to fly. And before it crashes, mama eagle drops. Right up under it and picks it up. And the Lord gave me that image immediately. So I stumbled into the message and preached through it from then on, just. A series of miracles. And today I continue to audit classes at Fuller. And when I sit down in the intro, in the course, I'll tell them everybody in the room, I'll Tell them. I'm the most blessed man at this. Table because I should have been outcast as an unfit pastor. I was truly an unfit pastor. I couldn't Pastor. But the Lord just kept the boat afloat through a series of grace miracles, miracles of grace over and over and. Over and over and over. So, yeah, it was two years until. She was in the fourth mental hospital. It was Keck USC University Hospital, one of the finest in la. One of the finest in the country. And so when she went in, there. Were only three patients. I didn't know what was going on. She'd been in the hospital before there, and it was a full psychiatry ward, you know, lockdown and all that. And this time there's only three. And as I keep going to see. Her over the month, it narrows down. To two, and then she's the last one. And so then I'm talking to the doctor, the main doctor, who was the university professor at USC University in Psychiatry. And at the end of our time. There, we're on about day 28. He looks at me, he says, you know, I've been doing this 44 years. He said, I've had thousands of patients. He said, in my entire career, there. Has never been a time that you. Put a patient into this ward. And after 30 days, I could not diagnose them. He said, but your wife is the first one in my career that I can't diagnose after one year. I mean, after 30 days of being with me. Wow. And that doctor then resigned the ward after Pam left. She's the last one. It closed up. He retired, and she was his last patient, at least in that ward. I'm certain of that. And so that was his whole experience. He had never seen one like her. And I didn't tell him. Maybe I should had, but she had the Holy Ghost. He had never dealt with anybody that had the Holy Ghost mitigating all that stuff. So again, Brother Ryan, the topic's so deep and varied, but everything that I had heard about demonic possession, I saw in her. I don't believe for a minute she was demon possessed because she had the Holy Ghost. And I don't think demons can possess any part of the body that a Holy Ghost filled vessel has. But I do know that her filters were wiped out. Her psychological filters were destroyed. And so one night I allowed people. That thought she's demon possessed to pray because she barked like a dog, she. Hissed like a snake, she growled like a bear, and it was scary. And this weird behavior was coming out of her. And they said, she's demon possessed. And I said, okay, if you think. That'S the case, then you can deal with it. I don't believe so, but I'll give you permission. And so we went to the church and had a basement prayer room, and. They put a recliner in the prayer. Room, and I stayed upstairs. I didn't want to be a part. Of it, but I did let them do this for. For. It was about eight hours and they got nowhere. They would pray for two hours, and then finally they get her pleading the. Blood, get her calling on the name. Jesus, getting repeat and get her praying into tongues, and the peace would come. And so they felt like they had. Got the deliverance that they needed, and they would turn away. And immediately, immediately she is back in that consuming anxiety fit that had her. And so it cycled one time, cycled. Two times, cycled three times. And it was in the fourth cycle. When I went downstairs and I said, you guys been at it all night. She's not demon possessed. You're not going to torment her anymore. I probably let it go on longer. Than I should have, but any rate, it appeared demonic, but it wasn't. It's just major. And I say that because there's a lot of confusion about mental illness today. Yeah. And so they started giving her pills. The doctor there in Keck, the final. Doctor there in the two years, first. Two years when she left. Well, actually one morning I go in. And say, man, what you gave her last night made a difference. He said, what's that? He said, that's unusual. Usually there's no change in one night. I said, I can tell a difference. I said, she's just a little. A bit of the edge is off. And so he combined it with some other drugs. And she then ran on that cocktail for 10 years and helped her immensely. Unfortunately, just basically every psychiatric drug has side effects. So it was drilling down and creating other problems. And so that was 2002 when we got the cocktail. And during this time, now that I got the cocktail, God gave me a gift of sanity. And I know this is where your topic's going and, and we'll see if we get there, so that's okay if we don't. Okay, thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing this, doctor. Well, it's. I. It brings tears to my eyes, but. I don't know any story like this. I'm sitting here listening to you and my tear. My. My eyes are welling up right now just thinking about. I don't know of Anybody that's gone. Through the torment and torture that she. Went through with the arthritis and that was enough. That was loss upon loss upon loss, loss, you know. Fortunately, Dr. Doer kept her walking, but. She lost the, the joints that held her toes to her feet, the meta. The tarsals in her bottom of her feet. All her joints turned to mush. And so then she's walking, her toes. Are popped up and she's walking on. Those bones to where she ends up going to the podiatrist once a month. And then once every three weeks and. Once every two weeks and once a week where he had to cut the calluses off just to help her have less pain, she wanted to walk. She's in the wheelchair a lot. And over years, when she's first diagnosed. In Birmingham, the doctor said she'll be. In a wheelchair in five years and then said, and she'll pass in 20. Well, she, she's diagnosed 1985, we're already 15 years in and she's still walking way past the five year mark. With the help of Dr. Doer, she's still walking. And then, you know, it just slowly. Slowly take a trip or something. There's the wheelchair and then, you know, but so just the agony. She, she lost mobility. She never complained. Only time I heard her complain is when she lost her thumbs because she. Was trying to cook something and kept dropping things. And then she's trying to hold it between her arms and then she's trying to hold with her elbows and she said, my thumbs, my thumbs. So just processing through this, of course it impacted me when she lost her driver's license, when she lost her left eye to uvi, which is arthritis of the eye. The arthritis would attack joints, consume them, and then move eventually to the organs. And she ended up living for 38. Years with, with the arthritis, which was nearly double, you know, what they had predicted. So in 2002, she got the cocktail that would keep her down through the night. I could give her to her at. Night and she'd be out until about noon the next day. So right about then, God again, God is just good. God sees us. And, and it's like with Moses. I don't see him coming at me. But God does pass by. He, he enshrouds me into the cleft of his own person, the rock. Jesus Christ. And then, then he lifts his hands and I see him as he goes by. So like Moses can't see God coming, but I can see him going and look back and say, thank you, Lord. All the Stuff, So we didn't plan on it. Had no idea. But I liked the house that God allowed us to buy because it didn't. Have any neighbors on the back. And that's kind of unique in LA County. So right behind us is the San Gabriel River. So I have riverfront property in Los Angeles. On the other side of the river is a horse ranch. So I can look over there and. Watch the horses training and what have you. And actually it sounds nice, but the river is a concrete gully and so. It'D be a drainage ditch in your. Part of the world, but. But here it's the San Gabriel river and probably it wouldn't, you know, would be, I don't know, concrete drainage ditch. You probably don't even have those. But. But any rate, I actually grew up. I actually grew up in one, playing in one and nasty mess, but I grew up. I can imagine they are slime on the bottom of them, but it's just at the very bottom where there's a little groove in the bottom. Most, most of it's all concrete. So we bought it because there's no house behind. But I realized that also on the other side of the river was a bike trail. I'd never ridden it, but somebody said, man, why don't you get out there. And ride that bike? And so I started riding because I was jittery, I was just stressed, just. No sleep and not knowing where the next explosion was. I was in a minefield constantly. Unbelievable minefield. And over the many years, over the many years. So it got to where I calmed myself when I drive in the neighborhood and I would tell myself, okay, turn the corner. You'll see a fire truck, an ambulance. Or a police car. So I just came to living like that. And then when I turn the corner and not see any of the above. Then I would feel better. Oh, oh, no, no, no cops here today. And just life's got to be that way. So before we continue on with the podcast, this episode is brought to you by Christian Leader Community Coaching. Are you a Christian leader who is overwhelmed by the complexity of trying to figure out how to grow your team? I want to introduce to you our Christian Leader Community Coaching program. We have an easy to use online platform platform that has a full archive of courses, supportive community live group coaching and elements that are customizable specifically for your team. And I've personally seen the quick and enormous impact that it can have on a team of leaders who are focused together on learning and mastering the skills needed to grow their leadership effectiveness. And enjoyment and we want to be a part of that with you. We want to help you create and implement a plan. The community is very much affordable. But I would say that you can't afford not to have focused growth within your team. Your results heavily depend on it. So don't wait any longer. Let's do this together. Go to ryanfranklin.org and join Christian Leader Community coaching today. I look forward to seeing you and your team inside the community. And now back to our podcast. And so mountain of stress. Mountain of stress. And so the the beach Seal beach is 20 it's 10 miles bike ride down. I started doing a 20 mile bike ride and when I would come back. I could feel completely different. You know, I'm out in the sunshine and then I would feel just a chill to wherever then I would be dealing with the rest of the day. I could manage it so much better. And I could still maintain my responsibilities. My responsibilities had become minimal. I was still doing Bible studies at the house before Pam's major problem. My mother in law tracked me at. 100 hours a week. I just, I needed to help save a church and it was a deal. Lots of work, lots of Bible studies. Lots of discipleship, lots of and so. Work, work, work, work. And then Pam's ordeal. Two years of being here at the house. I still brought people to the house and had Bible studies at the house. I wished it were all good stories but there's some ugly in there where. It just blew up with Pam's anxieties and I couldn't do a Bible study and felt so terrible. And right before all this happened we. Had structured the church into geographic small. Groups and we're doing Tuesday night organized. Edification small groups, small group ministry. And so now that my world collapsed. I just flipped that onto Wednesday night. That turned into the midweek service. I still wrote the edifications and prepared the materials and and still would meet with leaders and stuff. But then then Sunday nights I had. About four or five good preachers in the church. I let them preach and I became a Sunday morning pastor and and we turned the Sunday morning and to meet serving the congregation. But a lady we called sergeant of arms would come take care of Pam. She's just a big wonderful lady sister. In the church that could manage her. So I thought until the day and. Again everything just a wild story but. She showed up this just one example. She showed up at the church and. During those two years it's so unbelievably not her but she would wear two Dresses and she was always meticulous in. Her dress, in her appearance. And now she didn't comb her hair and just. It was wild. The only way to describe the appearance. And so they told me I was in my office at the back. They said, hey, in the front office, your wife's here. I said, my wife's here? How can that be? And they said, yeah, they couldn't contain her at the house. And I said, why didn't they call the cops? And they didn't want to do that. So they brought her to the church. And so there's. There she is. I walk in the front office just beyond herself. There's no words, nothing helps. I walk up to her, wrap both. Arms around her and I'm just holding her. Service is going to start in about five or 10 minutes, not very long. And I'm thinking, oh no, what am I going to do? There's nothing I can do. Nobody can take her. We can't get the ambulance here fast enough. And what they. It takes a special psychiatric unit to come. They call it a PET analysis psychiatric evaluation team. And so I thought, what am I going to do? And somebody tapped me on the shoulder. And said, hey, you got a guest here. I said, a guest? I'm not expecting anybody. And they said, yeah. He said, he's your guest preacher today. I said, really? And so I turned around and lo and behold, it was Doug Kleindenstit. And I said, doug, what are you doing here? He said, well, you asked me to come months ago. I said, no, no, I didn't. I said, but I need you really, really bad. And so of course Doug preached that day. I didn't do anything. I sat in the audience. Pam, I did sit with her and I literally wrapped my arm around her. My one arm all the way around my other hand. I took and held her chin. So I. Because her, she's wanting to glance and it was scary when people would see her, it was scary. And so that was just a God ordained miracle. But with now watching God manage the church. 20202002 I get the bicycle and. And she's on the cocktail to about. 12 or one I'm riding every day. Life is settling into normality a bit. It's time that I can take the final doctorate degree course at Fuller. And I'd paused the coursework some but. And it's with Dr. Archibald Hart who is, was famous. He spoke there in Alec one time because of the times. I remember that. Yeah. And he was 35 year chairman of. The school of Psychology at Fuller Seminary. And he had written some 35 books. And just a piece of who he was on the national front is when 911 hit. He was the psychiatrist that was called on site to New York City to get professional because he's a research psychologist. He understood brain and anatomy and physiology. And so he told them, here's what you need to do. Speaking medically, professionally, psychologically, men in the hole for a maximum of two weeks. Because after two weeks of acute stress. The stress starts working against you. And now you need two weeks equal. Recovery, equal to the stress. He told New York City that's the. Way it had to be. And the city did what he said. And all the first responders then were in for two weeks maximum. And then they would be off complete work for everything for two weeks. And that's. They maintain that throughout that whole ordeal under the. Under the advice of Dr. Hart. Yeah, so that was one little intro, getting an idea who he was. And then I took his course. I had two weeks with him. And when I first went into the course, he. He did psychological evaluation and found me in a mild depression. So I knew that. I didn't know I had male depression. I didn't know what male depression was, but I knew that I was trying to hold on tighter. I knew that I was feeling the. Church, like, slip away. And I was telling myself, okay, you gotta work smarter. You can't work any harder. There's no more hours in the day. You gotta figure this thing out and work smarter. And the church wasn't in crisis, but I was. And then I was irritable. And irritability is the telltale sign of male depression. So just being short, and not necessarily. Short with anybody, but I'd get aggravated when I couldn't get the wrapper to open up, get aggravated when I couldn't get something to do like it's supposed to do, and just tense. And so he diagnosed me in mild depression. He gave me the keys how to. Come through the depression. That's what transformed my life. So. And that was 2008, when the. Okay, I got to get a hold of this thing. Because he opened his course by talking about finishing well. And if I don't get a hold of this, I'm not going to finish. Well, I am right now struggling and knowing I'm struggling. And what we do is we look for a way out. So some people bail on a moral charge. I don't really think I would have done that. But who knows the potential. It's in all of us. Others Will bail with some type of. A financial charge that can come against. Them to remove them. And it's a, it's her others will. Will bail on. Just getting running themselves so ragged they're sick. So Arch taught us the three causes for clergy death. Number one is cardiac. Number two is cancer. Number three is car wrecks. And I think the car wrecks are. Suicide or something on that order. So any rate, he got a hold of me, got a hold of him. And when I left that course we. Had to do a 60 page paper. That was basically a self diagnosis. And I wrote a prescription and have stuck to it very, very strictly when I first finished the course and then still do most of it. And it's certainly in the back of my mind. That was one gift, Ryan, and that was 2008. To back up a little bit, there's. Two major things that changed my life. Number one was our chart. In 08 January, my dad was in. For open heart surgery. My brothers are there with dad in the hospital and they're just talking. And so Tom calls and says, hey. Jeff says he wants to do a bike ride. You want to do it with him? I said, no, you guys can't do that. He said, yeah, he got it free with his new bike and they're going. To ride across Wisconsin. I said, I don't think you can do that. Has Jeff done the math on that? And he says, yeah, they want us. To be able to do two 60 mile days consecutively. I said, tom, have you ever done a 60 mile day? He said, no. I said, what so happens I just did one of those. And I said, there's no way you're. Getting back on that seat the next day. You're just, you're not going to do it. You can't get trained in. It's going to be in August. He said, we're going to do it. We want you to do it with us. And then he says, you know Dan, they keep on talking about exercise, exercise, exercise to help with the issues he and I both had, which was cholesterol, triglycerides. And I had been on medication four years earlier until they diagnosed me with. Elevated liver enzymes, meaning my liver had. Gotten inflamed from the statin drugs they were giving me. They'd taken me off and they'd done all this stuff to try to get me to treat it naturally. Tom says, why don't you do a ride with us and we'll see if exercise works. I said, you do it, you prove it and then let me Know how it goes. So that's what kind of happened is he does it. His numbers dropped in half in one week's time. The ride was about a week and everything. I said, man, sign me up. So in 09 January, I'm with the doctor, and she says, okay, we got to put you back on those meds. I said, ma'am, you told me that was going to give me liver disease. She said, yeah, we'd rather you have liver disease than heart disease. And I said, what? I don't want either one. I said, how about I do the bike ride my brother did. He. All his numbers dropped in half. I'll sign up for the ride, commit to it, and you don't have to. Give me the meds. She said, that's malpractice. I can't do that. So she wrote the prescription. I never took them, but I started. Training, training, training, and my numbers didn't change. My whole training time, numbers didn't change until that August. I did the same ride across the. State of Wisconsin, came back, and my. Numbers were in half. Actually less than half. Triglycerides went from 4. 35 to 192. The average for cholesterol went from 6.4 to 3.2, exactly half. And both were in bounds where the numbers were supposed to be. So the three of us made a pack. Okay, we're going to do this once. A year just for our health. We're going to sit on this bicycle. Seat for once a year or one week of each year and for our health. And. And that also was a gift because. It motivated me to get out there and ride, keep in shape, keep fit, and. And help me manage the disaster of a life that I was living. Yeah, Pam in 08, I took her to Sea Arch. And he looked at me. I'll never forget it. He spent about an hour. He had little instruments that he had. Invented and stuff he would do. And it was more than just this psychology stuff. He was evaluating different things. And afterwards we're walking down. The access to his offices were from the outside. So we're walking the outside corridor. Sun is shining in. We're headed to elevators. And he says, dan, I don't know of anything you could have done different, because I was just guilt ridden. What did I do wrong here in her care that we've been at this, you know, right now eight years. He said, I don't know of anything different you could have done. And he kept on walking with me and made a few other comments. And then he said he Looked up at me as we're getting ready to get on the elevator. He said, you're a pastor, and you are a faith pastor. He said, this must be very demoralizing to you. And with that, I stepped on the elevator and thought, but God's with me. It is rough, but God's with us. And so 08's a particular hedge mark in my mind, because I know. Him saying demoralize, that was demoralizing to you, sort of a. He really pegged you in what you were feeling in that moment. Right. And he's venting, helping me vent my. Emotions that I didn't even know I had. The attunement that he produced in that moment was probably healing for you, I would imagine. Absolutely. Yeah. That's what he was doing. He was not degrading me. He was reading my story and basically affirming me that it's okay to be in the throes of wherever I'm at. So that's kind of the hinge mark in my head is seeing him. Because about 2010, Pam and I hit level ground, and finally I had her back. And it was. It was more good days than bad days. So it starts off way, way, way. More bad months than good months. And, you know, and slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, slowly, she's coming around about 2010. I have most of her back, and we had. We had three decent years there. And whether it was life, you know, she wasn't active like many wives, because, you know, the immobility. But psychologically, at least, she was back with me. And so in 2013, we were checking out of a Walgreens, and they had. An extension cord running to the cash register. It had fallen to the floor and had a little loop wrapped around. And Pam was just generous and kind. To people she'd meet, particularly like that. And she's interacting with him a little bit and turns to walk out, and. Her foot slips right into that loop of that cord. She takes about a step and a half, and she couldn't straighten out her elbows and her hands couldn't catch her fall. And so she goes down, hits shoulder, and lands on her hip. And she fractured pelvic bone in two. Places and fractured her tailbone. And so we are. First of all, we go to where the ambulance took us. And it's a funny story because they. Didn'T find the fractures. They were hairline. And so they. They released her. She couldn't sit in the car. She couldn't sit down. So they released her back to the ambulance. That Carried her back home. So she's taken to the hospital in an ambulance. Taken back home in an ambulance. And you saying, what's wrong with this picture? You know, you're not supposed to go home in an ambulance. Yeah. So we called her rheumatologist at the University hospital and he said, I'll bring. Her in for pain. They didn't have an er and he said, I'll bring her in for pain. And he did. And they found the three breaks. And immediately under hospital protocols, they took all the psychiatric meds out. And she had the first doctor come in and after she's evaluated and getting settled in maybe a couple of days, and he says, I got. I got news that I have to share with you. You're never going to walk again. And it deficit. I'm in there in the room, and they devastated us. And so next understudy guy comes in because University Hospital, these are, you know, understudy doctors. And. And they. He comes in, says, same thing you, you'll never walk in his low evaluation. And. And this is, you know, after they've. Admitted her, and now they're doing their original walkthroughs. So then her rheumatologist shows up, and so he's standing at the food bed. I'll never forget at this point, I was sitting over by the window. Now I've come over by the bathroom. There, and I'm looking at him. And she asked him and says, Dr. Ersman, will I ever walk again? And now, I mean, he's doctored her for many years and you could tell the connection. And he dropped his head and he, he said, began to shake his head. Pam, I'm so sorry, he said, but with all your medications, with your history with where you're at, he said, what they've told you is true. You just won't be able to walk again. And so again, you know, we're both. Hopeful that Dr. Ehrsman is our doctor. Won'T tell us something like that. So then Dr. Dorr comes in. He's this gargantuous guy that just flamboyantly. He's got 17 students following him. Literally, I counted him. 17 students are in the room, circling the whole bed in the room. And as he marches in, well, this. Is Pamela Butler, and I've doctored her for 17 years. I did those implants, and my implants are perfect. He hangs them up on the screen and he's bragging, everybody, looky here. Everything's perfectly in place. And then he reached over and kissed. Pamela on the forehead and gave her book that he had written. And, and so she says, Dr. Door, will I ever walk again? And he got serious now. He said, pam, he said, I can't. Tell you that you'll walk again. But he said, I won't tell you that you'll never walk. And with that, we don't know how it happened, Ryan. You don't rehab someone that's not going to walk again. But against medical protocols. I know Dr. Dorr is the guy that made it happen and I'm suspicious. That he paid the bill. But anyway, yeah, they put her into rehab after she laid, you know, as. Max time as they could there in. That bed, started to rehab her very, very little. And to deal with the pain she was going through, they gave her the equivalent of 36 Vicodin a day. My goodness. And those hairline fractures grew into about. A 16th inch fractures. Literally her bones were splitting apart as they were forcing her to walk. And she did walk again. And unfortunately they could never get her off the opioids. So from then on they released her. At 16, equivalent of 16 Vicodin a day. And I was able to pull it down to about 12 or so, but. That medicated her and it did, you know, drop the props out from under her. We had five years, first it was. About three years of climbing up, climbing. Up, another couple years of almost kind of a Plateau. In 2018, she had another fall. Yeah. And then, then they took all the opioid and then tried to redo her back with psychiatric meds. And it was just extremely bizarre. Everything. So I've given you a lot of the physical with all that story is as much or more psychosis because she was seeing stuff, hearing stuff, just inventing all kinds of stuff that the furnace would come on in the house and. She'D hear helicopter land on the roof. And they were going to come and arrest us and dismember us and pull. Her fingernails out one at a time. And poke her eyes out and skin us alive. And I can't imagine the agony that one, to see your wife that you love so dearly go through that. But then two, and I'm sure that it's even hard to put the focus on you because you care about your wife so much. But for you to go through. The Lord gave me the gift of the bicycle. And then with the methodologies, tools that. Our charter trained me in, the two of those kept me alive. And then I could take Pam to Oklahoma City to her family when that I'd go do Those week long bike rides. And so that gave us space a little bit. And then her family also took her. During general conference or other stuff like that. Of course I started missing a lot of general conferences, but yeah, yeah, so there was support there, but we didn't have any immediate family out here. The support I got primarily, well, you. Know, we, we hired some caregiving, but. Then primarily was through church people that. Just loved her and wanted to serve the first lady. They just, they knew it wasn't her. They knew the real person and with what they saw, they just knew it wasn't her. And so they, they loved her. At any rate, the story keeps on going beyond that. You know, I brought you up to 2018. She passed away in 2022. But there's even still a lot of dynamics and stuff that God just kept everything alive. God kept the boat afloat, God managed to manage life. Yeah, that is a unbelievably hard story to a heart just goes out for you when, when I think about that and to her and what she went through and that was many, many years. I think the hardest piece, Ryan, was the psychosis after that fall in 2018 was so extreme. And. She believed that she was going to hell and she fully believed it. And she believed she's going tonight. And she believed in that. The devil is coming to take me to hell tonight. And to watch that. And the devil's coming for my son tonight. And she would tell him, dane, you know, you're going to hell tonight. Devil's coming for me and you. And she believed it. And no matter how much you told her about the grace of God and. Oh, no, no, no, I would say, pam, I know you believe that because she did. Pam, the doctor said those are fixed, bizarre irrational thoughts. That's, that's not the truth. But it's okay. Yeah, I love you and it's okay. That, that, that is what you believe. But I said, I said you are not forsaken. You feel forsaken. So I'd affirm her feelings. You feel forsaken. So did the Messiah on the cross. When he said, my God, my God, why are you forsaken me? But Jesus was not forsaken and you're. Not forsaken and you're in God's hands and it's okay. You feel, you feel it, but it's not the truth. Yeah. So I would do my best on. Those and I would teach her. I say, pam, and this is whatever your eternal purpose is, you're being shaped. Into an extreme messianic. Role because I don't know anybody. And I don't know that I'd say. All this to her, but I don't. Know anybody that went through such torment as Jesus on the cross to feel forsaken by God. But Pam did. How did you grapple with that, Dr. Butler? It was very obvious you kept your faith in God, but many people wouldn't. How did you grapple with that and, and, and be able to settle that in your mind that the God of, of heaven who could take care of anything. Yeah. Allowed her to go through that unbelievably tough. The focus is on the eternal purposes. Yeah. That God is always at work and it's always good. So Psalm 119:68. God is good and does good. Bottom line. Romans 8:28. He works all things together for good. Well, I don't see goodness coming out of this temporal story, but the eternal story has to be massive with outcomes that God's got a universe that he apparently needs help with because he says, you and I are going to rule. And reign with Christ. We're going to judge angels. We know there's a future for whatever it is, that the dominion we lost in the garden is going to be fully restored to where we rule in this universe. Governors and leaders and I don't know what all. But so God's eternal purposes. So what does that mean? It means that God is always busy shaping us for that eternal purpose. So that's my faith was. It's not about the here and now. It's about what God's doing eternally. Now I see you traveling the country and speaking about these things and what the changes that have been made in your life, the chronic stress that you had to go through and endure. What has. What has. What have you learned in the midst of that about, oh, Lord. That's a loaded question, isn't it? What, what's, you know, for somebody to. I don't know anybody that has gone through that type of chronic stress, that severe. Of chronic stress. But if they were, what advice would you tell them? As you're navigating health in general with stress management, anxiety, depression, even health issues yourself that you had to go through, what advice would you give that individual? Well, there's lots of spiritual advice, lots of faith advice, lots of scripture advice, but skipping all of that. Cause we could spend the rest of our time. I don't know how much time you want to take, but we could be right there. But the most important advice I embraced for myself was I have to prioritize me even above Pam. Wow. So I was raised in Indianapolis. We have a mortician friend that's in the church there. He told me many times, he said. I've seen a lot of sick people kill a healthy person. And of course he's warning me. So I learned that I had to take care of me. So you had to put your own oxygen mask on first. As they tell you on the airplane. If I didn't, if I crashed, then Pam's story really was even a greater disaster. Yeah. For her to have any semblance of, you know, life or survival, I'd have to take care of me. What did that look like for you specifically? I know the bike was. The exercise was a big deal for you. Yep. Yeah. What else? So I hung a two carrots out in my life to reward me, just to give me something to look forward to. One is the annual bike ride that we did with the brothers. That was a blast. Another was an annual training, I would assume. Yeah. It kept me training the bike. And also I likewise did a February. Ski trip with our family. And it was about a week long. Same thing. Many years. I was able to take Pam. There'd be enough ability that I could take her. Other times her family came to the. Resorts and we did it together. And so we just kind of managed her. Oh, God, there's so many stories. I just. We've ended up in the ER a few times. We've had all kinds of stuff happen. Anyway, it wasn't any of us getting hurt on the hills. It was what happened to her anyway. So we, we. We had that as another carrot. So what that did was help me. To train all year round. Because physical fitness is an absolute priority to how we are emotionally, mentally, and I believe it factors in spiritually. So you would put these little small goals through the year that you would. I call them carrots. Because it's a little reward out there. Yeah. And it would help you train and work towards that. You can't get on the snow ski slope out of shape. Cause you'll get hurt. And you can't sit on a bicycle seat for a week without training period. What about outside of the physical exercise? I know that you are really in tune with nutrition, sleep, things of that nature. You learned a lot from Dr. Hart. In fact, the message that Dr. Hart taught at because of the times one year was related to sleep. And I remember listening to that over and over again. What did you learn from him regarding sleep? Well, that's the next single biggest piece. Well, number One is take care of me, prioritize me. And the most important piece, even more important than the exercise and taking care. Of me, is sleep. So appropriate enough sleep. So what's that mean? Well, Arch told us, he said, by the time you finish with me, you all are going to be experts on sleep. So I can talk about sleep a long time, but what it means. Ryan, there's again, there's a lot to this. But the most important segment of sleep comes in the final segment, which is. Seven and a half. Nobody's going to like this. I don't like it. But your head is on the pillow. It doesn't mean you're asleep. And sometimes you think you're awake when you're asleep. That happens all the time. The brain is still surface, but the body's healing. So the body primarily heals. And I can explain this more detail, but the body's primarily healing during the first five segments of sleep. The brain heals during what we call. REM sleep, rapid eye movement or dream sleep. In the first segment, which is 90 minutes each minute, each segment is 90 minutes long. We wake up in between, as we're. Transitioning segments, whether we know it or. Not, we're waking up every 90 minutes. Anybody wants to look at a clock. When they're up to go to the. Bathroom, they're going to figure out it's on a 90 minute interval. And so in the first interval we get two to three minutes REM sleep. In the fifth interval, which is six hours to seven and a half hours of head on the pillow, you get 10 to 11 minutes REM sleep. If you're able to sleep, that's a big if. Because if you've caffeinated and are stimulated with any other drugs besides caffeine as well, or if you haven't exercised enough. To wear your body down to prepare. You for head on the pillow that long, you may not be asleep. We may not be sleeping from six. To seven and a half. But if I am both not stimulated, if I'm not super stressed and I don't stress myself with chemicals, and then I'm able and I've exercised enough to wear my body down to my body needed the recovery for seven and a half hours, I'm still asleep. Then from seven and a half to nine hours head on the pillow, we get 43 to 45 minutes REM sleep. REM sleep is when the brain heals. REM sleep is when we get all kinds of stuff going on. That's when our memories are made. That's when our memories are shifted short. Term to long term, that's when primarily we're dealing with memory bank stuff. But also, there's an organ right at the very base of the brain, at. The top of the brain stem, called the hippocampus. The hippocampus produces millions and millions of brain cells every night during REM sleep. So all of those cells are being distributed through the brain, through the spinal. Column, spinal cord, replenishing the neurons that. Are diminishing and worn out and dying. The old memories that the brain says. Okay, that can be discarded. That's what it does. That memory is contained in a cell, and that cell dies, and another cell that's just been produced is going to replace it. That's so cool, because they tell us now with Alzheimer's and dementia, one thing. They certainly know is that the chromosomes. At the very end have the telomer that is like the coating on the. End of a shoestring that keeps the shoestring from unraveling. Likewise, the chromosomes have these. They're called telomer, the coding that keeps the chromosome from unraveling. But with chronic stress, we realize, we. Know that the coding is slowly diminishing, diminishing, diminishing. And that chromosome is unraveling and then breaking off. Yeah. And it's shortening. And so when they've died, you know, when they do the autopsies on Alzheimer's, this is stuff that they found. And they know that this is what's going on. So what's also going on, if I give myself to that REM sleep, is I get brand new neurons that's going. To go replace all of those failing and dying. Also, if I don't give myself to. REM sleep, I will go into depression and literally the hippocampus will shrink by. One third in size, almost. It goes to 30%. It shrinks down over 30% in size. And because I'm not giving its time to replenish. So even people that feel that they're okay on four or five hours of sleep or six hours of sleep in the long run, they're doing damage to their brain. And I'm so sad that it's that way and we can't beat it. There may be, you know, freaks of nature occasionally. That's a terrible way to say it, but people that. What I'm. All I'm telling you was, was developed by NASA under the order of President Clinton in 1990. Something another, because of Alzheimer's and dementia being so prevalent in America, Clinton ordered a sleep study, NASA performed it and did it in outer space. And so what's gone on over the. Last 20 years is the coffee industry's. Taken off like crazy. And so people love their coffee. Starbucks spikes its coffee 20% more caffeine. To make it more addictive. And so what that does is stimulate us more. Caffeine is a stimulant. So, but any rate, the, the industry can reach out to any university that is glad to publish any report that they want, whatever analysis or results, and the university can produce that and just be selective in the criteria and not tell everybody what the criteria is and only say here's the outcomes. And they're not given. You know, those university studies don't necessarily. Tell the whole truth. They, they're not lying, they're just probably. Not sharing and shift it a little bit. And, and, but, but NASA's not doing that. Yeah. And, and it's NASA that came up. With the research that says we need. Human beings need absolute minimum eight hours sleep, eight and a half hours sleep between eight to eight and a half. Is what NASA said. And it takes on the average 23 minutes a night to go to sleep. So you factor in the 23 minute prelude, eight and a half hours head on the pillow. You're right at nine hours. Yeah. And you're saying that the seven and a half to nine is the most productive in restoring the brain. That's the critical, particularly for us in this western stress zone, that we don't live under physical stress. So stress defined. So people talk about good stress, bad. Stress, and there is good stress, but it's not what people think it is simply defined. Good stress is any stressor that lasts. For less than two weeks. Any stressor if it's less than two weeks, it's good stress because it'll do all the effects that God designed to make you run fast, get away from that lion, do that work in battle. And swing the sword and fight hard. And run fast and think fast and. Respond quickly and be in motion and. Be in gear and feel on top. Of your game and feel good. So that pastoring job is not just two weeks. Right. Nor is hardly any stress in America. Yes. So we're built to handle two week stress. But after two weeks then all the. Positive reaches the peak and it turns to negative again. That's why Arch told the city of New York, here's what the chemistry does in your body. And this stuff Ryan can't be beat. People think, well that's not that way for me. A preacher will say well, this is my life. This is how I live. But then the questions asked, do you know the second greatest fear known to the human being? And the answer is, well, it's public speaking, and this is how I live. What. Do you ever. How often do you do a wedding? Well, I do a wedding once a week. You know, some pastors will do that. And so. Well, do you have to have your. Your act together when you're doing a wedding? Do you have to be thinking about. The next piece on the program? Do you have to think about what. Comes after the vows? What comes before the vows? Do you have to have, you know. You got maybe notes in front of. You, but do you have to be on top of your game? And the answer is yes. And so it helps us. Stress is good when it's less than two weeks, but when it's chronic, and. Chronic stress is anything past two weeks. That is bad stress. So the way to manage it. One little piece. Yeah. Sleep's top priority. And I don't know how far we want to go with all this, because there's a lot to it. Yeah. But that's the reason why every pastor needs three weeks out of the pulpit. Three consecutive weeks out of the pulpit once a year. Because it takes. It almost becomes even a carrot like it is. And it feels good. Takes a week to get unplugged to figure it out. Oh, I've been under stress. Hey, it feels pretty good not to. Have that stress load. Yeah. And then it's a second week of healing. But you need the three weeks, because. If you're back in the pulpit on. The second week, you know, if you. Do two full weeks away, and if you're back in the pulpit, then you lose the whole second week because the gear's already working. You gotta be back at it. So you need to be out of the pulpit three weeks. So, Dr. Butler, most of the people are not gonna do. And I know that there's probably a lot more recommendations that you could give here in this moment, but most people are not going to do what you're saying. Even with the three weeks and other things. What impact is that having on people? Are you seeing. What are the ramifications? Depression. They find a way to fail sometimes so that they can have an excuse to get out of what they're doing. Yeah. That's when it hits the extreme place. Yeah. It's also a life without the peace, without the joy. That's. Without the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. Without what God wants. Yeah. We end up being irritable. We end up with our spouses not knowing who we are and we ourselves hardly know who we are. What's that? We. They become egotistical at times or cynical. Yeah, very much cynical and critical and life is lost. It's fun, it's joy. Yes. And we can live in that mode and kind of exist. Yeah. So. And then what we also do, Ryan. Is run to pills and doctors are happy to prescribe them. Very happy to. So when Arch was with us because of the times, this is getting kind. Of close to home. But we're riding together in a transportation. Vehicle that came to pick him up, came to pick me up. And the people in the van, there's. Just a handful of us being transported. Over to the meeting and they get to talking about their medications and Art says to me, we stepped off the van. He says, man, you guys are in bad shape. When he's hearing people in our group. Talking about the meds that they have. To be on, I don't like hearing that. But that is what we do. You know, we will catch a cold. Here's just a small example. We'll catch a cold and we run. To the pharmacy and get the over. The counter stuff to boost us up. When the cold is a gift from. God to draw us out of the stress zone. Right. He's wanting us to lay down and rest. We don't like that lay down and rest stuff. But another answer to the question is the comparison to Seventh Day Adventist, that of course they're strict about the Sabbath and that's another the principles, that's that we need to engage. And it's not very popular. But the Seventh Day Adventists do follow it. And they live. There's the community right out here in SoCal with us in Loma Linda. They live 10 years longer than most Americans. That whole community statistically is 10 years older. Lives 10 years longer. Yeah. And it's one of the seven, what. They call those zones in the world. Where they're long, the centennial zone. And so. But you calculate the number of Sabbaths. That'S in 70 years. You know, God gives us three score and 10. There's about 10 years worth of Sabbaths. So if I violate all the sabbaths. Of the lifespan of my 70, God's given me. God says, hey, I'll just catch it, you know, I'll get mine later. Which is again, he did that to, to Israel when he took him into captivity. He said, you guys didn't let the. Land Rest for 490 years. I'm getting my Sabbaths off that land. Wow. So it catches up with us. We're not going to escape God. Yeah. So the person that's standing up, preaching. Eyeballs are all on them, they are doing. And they don't even know it, but. Their arms are squeezing through a condition called vasoconstriction, preparing the body to have. Blood loss on the fingertips or on the extremities. Because stress is designed for physical. I'm to go to war. I'm to run from a lion. Yeah, it's fight or flight. And so I would do this after. Arch taught me, and take a thermometer and that you'd use to read the temperature on a. On an air vent or something. It's got the. It's got the infrared little button on it. And you said, push. I'd take that thermometer and I would read the temperatures. I was doing two. I did 15 years. I did two services Sunday morning. So I'd go to the office and. Have my little thermometer and I'd read. My body temperature was about 75, 75 to 77. It's 20 degrees cooler at the extremity because of vasoconstriction, that all my blood vessels are squeezing to hold the blood. I can't beat it. If I'm public speaking, my body's doing. It's physiological. People think, well, it's good stress, it's natural, it's normal. It's physiological stuff going on that we cannot beat. So I'll say this. We can't beat stress. Stress will beat us. Yeah. And the solution to that is one, sleep, two, sabbaticals and having our routine rest now. Three, three Sabbath, four, as I finish the story in between those services is I measured 75. Then I would start working to dilate these blood vessels, and I would do it through progressive muscle relaxation technique. And somebody go online and look for that and find how to do progressive muscle relaxation. And I did that sitting in my Office during those 20 minutes, and I. Could get it up over 90, get the extremity back. So in other words, I'm relaxing and I'm renormalizing. And that's something else I do when I put my head on the pillow. The first 23 minutes is to help me relax, to go to sleep during, you know, the 23 minute. And I interrupted you. I'm sorry, brother. No, no, no, no. I interrupted you. And glad you finished that story. And would you consider that, you know, just a simple form of meditation, you know, as scripture would say, and Just being able to relax those muscles. So you know, we've got to move to a close here. But I really want some practical things for from you. Like what's some. What's some. Maybe even if you could say it in rapid fire. Yeah. Of things that you would do daily and weekly that just keep you centered. Yeah. So key word being balance and seek balance. Always maintaining routines of spiritual disciplines and prioritizing those things as well. Yeah. And then on the stress management stuff, the sleep two week annual vacation, minimal Sabbath weekly. Still a special time for myself daily. Often for me it's a bike ride or it's something physical. People want me to do something, I. Just can't do it. If it doesn't do physical exercise, I. Don'T have enough time. So. It does need to be type. B pleasures but I don't want to get into that. But any rate. And then proper diet because wrong foods inflame the body and you don't digest them well. Any particular things that come to mind for you that you try to stay away from? Caffeine has a seven and a half hour half life. Okay. So a hundred milligram cup of coffee and this is not coffee but a hundred milligram is going to have 50 milligram in my body seven and a half hours later. Completely. Not totally, but I didn't take any this morning. I'm not addicted to it. I don't. I would say I'll have coffee one day a week maybe and maybe not even that. But that's just me. But early in the morning when it's going 15 hours later when I'm getting ready to go to bed, I still got 25 milligram from that one. Just one cup of coffee. Yeah. People say, well coffee doesn't affect me. Well they're probably telling the truth because. They drink so much of it that. They, the, the receptors in the brain. Are all filled and they can't. There's no more receptor space for caffeine. And that does happen. So. But they're also. It's a stimulant and it lingers and it impacts my sleep. I just, if I'm, if I'm doing good exercise, it won't have that impact. But. You'Ve got me by a few years. But I hear that you ride your bike a gazillion miles a year. How in the world are you doing that? Is it just the routine of staying fit? It's again the week long bike ride that I put out there. That's the carrot and yeah that's the carrot. And then I've added a couple more carrots. Yeah. Since that Pam, she went into a home in 2020 and then passed in 22. So I'll do a couple more things like that. But yeah, and then I enjoy being in the word of God and listening to preachers and podcasts and stuff while I'm cycling. Yeah. So any, any final words that you want to say to wrap up regarding sleep or health or stress or anything that maybe you haven't covered that you'd love to say? I believe that God wants us to finish well. Yeah. I believe that he wants us to be as healthy as we can to the end. Yeah. I believe that this is just me, that we live life in decades. And the dividends I get in this. Decade came from my lifestyle in the previous decade. And the dividends in the next decade will. Will come on how I live right now. And I don't think it's ever too late to start that. Now we understand neuroplasticity, that the brain. Is plastic and that I'm not setting concrete, that I can retool, I can redevelop, I can get millions of new brain cells every night. I can reshape habits, I can develop new appetites. I don't have to eat in a way that's damaging my body and so forth, so on. But I need to prioritize me and prioritized for me to end. Well, that's key. Yeah. That's really important is prioritize me. That's a huge principle that I'm getting from this. A lot. Got a lot from this. But that's a huge principle is put my oxygen mask on first and then help somebody else. Yeah. Because if I don't, then what good am I? Yeah. Well, Dr. Butler, on top of that. I can be damaging to other people. Yeah. Particularly if I'm in a pulpit and. I got anger issues and I haven't. Slept well or whatever. Whatever. It's going to splash out. So true. Yeah. I am unbelievably grateful for you sharing such a heart wrenching story with us that you've been willing to go there with us today. And that's no small thing. I'm grateful for it. Learned a lot. And I respect you even more deeply because of having heard that. So thank you so much. It's healing, Ryan. For me, just even process it. It's called externalization. Just letting me externalize brings healing to me. So I thank you. And God's good. Yeah. God is good. Thank you. For joining us, Dr. Butler. I greatly appreciate your time today. My pleasure. Thank you, Brother Ryan. God bless you. So this concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin. Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian Leader Made simple podcast.


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