In this episode, we talk with Pastor and licensed counselor Chad Flowers about the vital topics of mental clarity and emotional balance. Discover the transformative power of emotional intelligence in both personal and professional realms, and learn practical strategies for enhancing your leadership skills by overcoming insecurities and common leadership derailers. Chad shares his expert advice on maintaining emotional health amidst life’s challenges, offering tools and techniques that listeners can apply to achieve a more balanced and focused mind. Join us for a conversation that promises to help anyone looking to lead a more emotionally intelligent and mentally clear life.
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Transcript
Gotta be able to give people hope and as you were talking about empathy to others, you can't give what you don't have. Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need to grow your leadership effectiveness. And enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session so you don't miss a single episode.
I'd also greatly appreciate any reviews, likes and shares that you can give me. It just helps me extend my reach to more people. So leaders, I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaotic, you're struggling to feel effective and you're just not enjoying leadership as much as you could be. And so to help you, After many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian leader blueprint, they'll guide you to find clarity in your life in leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life.
It'll help you see yourself more clearly to leverage your strengths and you, produce more productive relationships. It's a step by step guide to leadership transformation. And I have that in 2 formats now I have a free short guide that you can find on ryan Franklin dot org, and I have a book, the christian later blueprint. And you can find that in any format, including an audiobook, wherever you buy your books. I have a few more things on my webs, site that you may be interested in, so just head on over to ryan franklin dot org and check it all out.
And now, let's get to our session. Today, we have a special guest on the podcast, doctor Chad Flowers. Chad has... Served on the pastor oil team of a emmanuel Pen church in Me, Texas since 2007, holding a variety of positions such as youth pastor, assistant pastor and for the last few years, senior pastor. Chad serves this community as a licensed professional count sir.
He also has a Phd in leadership studies from Dallas Baptist university. He and his wife Mindy have 3 children, and I'm excited to have him here with us. So Chad welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. Ryan, it's an honor to be on your podcast, and thank you so much. For inviting me to join you today.
Yeah. I appreciate you taking the time out to do it. For I asked you to to come on the podcast. You you have a... You really have a unique blend of education and experience.
Your licensed counselor. You have a doctorate and leadership and your pastor. And, the the second pillar of the Christian leader blueprint model is called see yourself more clearly. Covers a a variety of things related to the mind and emotions, things like clarity of mind and emotional intelligence leadership derail, things of that nature. And so with your amazing combination of expertise and experience, That's what I wanna talk about today if that's okay with you.
We'll do our best. Alright. Well, there there is a lot of focus on the mine these days. It's sort of been a a shift. I I would say probably more so since Covid.
But I I really think that there's good reason for that as well, Even scripture speaks to it often. Second Timothy 1 7 for god It's not given it the spirit of fear, but a power and love and sell mine. And so Chad, why don't you start off by just maybe sharing a little bit about what clarity of mine means to you? And maybe what it looks like when you don't have clarity, Would you be okay with start with that? Sure.
Well, and again, given a lot of thought in prepping for this. First of all, clarity of mind. To me, he simply means just being able to think clearly. Precisely. It Yeah.
It's it's the ability to stay focused without distraction or confusion. And it, Your verse of scripture cy timothy 1 7 where it mentions a sound mind. I like the modern English version, the Me. It uses in place of sound mind self control. Self control.
Having clarity of mind, means having a sound mind according to the King james version, but also means being self controlled or self disciplined. And my lord, we live in a world full of distractions. You know, you have a smartphone. There's constant app notifications if you don't turn them off. There's constant needs for receiving, you know, or making phone calls.
You know, there's the juggling of different seasons of life. You know we're talking about before the... We we began this podcast, you know, our families and and then just all the different things we each do. It requires a lot of clarity of mind And from a counseling perspective, if you're gonna enjoy good physical, mental or emotional and spiritual health, you gotta have good clarity of mind. Much less just trying to be an effective leader.
Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. So so what is what what would you say that it sort of looks like when you... When a person doesn't have that clarity.
And let's just take up... You know, your typical pastor who doesn't have any major whatever going on in this world or or, you, you know, major emotional, mental issues. Just a typical pastor, what does it look like when they don't. You know, take the time to really dive into clarity and and have... They're they're just feeling a little bit fuzzy Well, I would...
If I'm sitting across some somebody sharing with that, my my question is, what are you being intentional about? And I'll probably come back to that a lot throughout this this podcast. You know, you... Who are you accountable to? You know, you know, I would start there.
Because you know, when you were thinking in terms of, you know, you know, if you're... If you're lacking it, looking to achieve it, you know, Proverbs 27 17 talks about iron sharpening iron. The last part of that verse says, so 1 person sharpen another. You know, if if if you need to get focused, to get around people that are focused. So I'm I'm thinking and wondering if if a person's lacking it, who are they running with?
You know, who are they who are they around? If you wanna learn how to pray, you get around people that know how to pray, You know, if if I don't know what I need to do, but I know something needs to be change. Well, I I'd I talk to people that will give me constructive criticism. Well, and I would say that a lot of times, when when I see people with a lack of clarity, you know, they're act... They actually are not running with people.
They're. They're withdrawn a lot of times. They're in their off head, and it just creates a fog within them like you said, being with people actually can bring a clarity that that's pretty significant. Right. I can't think of any time in the past that I've needed to develop clarity of mind on something, get focused on something learn how to do something and that I didn't do it on my own without help.
Mh. Yeah. You got it. You gotta have others help you. Great point.
So let's get a a little more practical and that's that's probably 1 practical piece, but what are some good practices or habits that you would recommend to somebody that that wants to have a greater clarity of mine. I I understand. People is gonna be a big huge factor in that. Is there anything else? Well, you know, obviously, there's gotta be a want to and a time for honest self reflection.
You know, this this is gonna possibly lead into other... You know, this could lead into several different directions, but thinking it in terms of you know, are you, you know, what's your daily habits like, what are your, mh. You know, is there a drive to want to learn? Or are you sitting there satisfied? Thinking that you you'd may not be that you think you know at all, but that is there a desire learn?
Is there are you I'll come back to this later, but, you know, are you are you curious? Are you is... Are you seeing the need for change? If there's not a dissatisfaction with how life is, what's gonna prompt someone to want to change and improve. So I I would just add that...
As far as just practical sense that beyond just who you rubbed shoulders with, just starting even maybe before that, a little bit of self evaluation, what, you know, am I achieving everything I need to. I doing all that god's called me to do Yeah. So moving into the the the topic of emotional intelligence. Obviously, that is a big portion of clarity of big word. Big big evaluation of of what's going on in my mind.
There's a lot of factors to emotional intelligence even beyond just me, it's how I how I react to to or or how I take in others as well and how I react to that. But it is a buzz word. Emotional intelligence is a buzz word these days in leadership, especially in the business world. Yeah. It is.
Can you give us just kind of a brief rundown of of what emotional intelligence is? Sure. I, I will do my best because I don't claim to be an expert in it, but I've definitely had to learn more about it for my own journey. Daniel Go wrote a book in the in the... Well, he's done He wrote several books about it.
But 1 of his first ones emotional intelligence, why it can matter more than iq. So emotional intelligence it also known as the q. You know, knowing one's emotions. And and it's interesting because throughout the book while he does talk about it, he doesn't it's difficult for to nail down where he actually gives you like a bias sentence. Like, here is my definition, but you know, collectively from the book, you gather that he's talking about, the sense of knowing one's emotions, managing emotions, motivation, you know, obviously recognizing emotion and others, handling relationships, I do like that in the book, he calls it a meta ability, which, you know, it's...
If if I iq is what you know, e q is how you use what you know. It's a it's it's your yourself awareness. It's it's a And I like that he he makes the point that it's a it's a skill that can be developed over time, which thank God. Because, Lord knows, if you're in ministry, and you're doing any kind of work with people, you better have a a level of of e q and growing in order to... Yeah.
In in order to to be successful, I believe Yeah. So there... And there is a lot of variety of of definitions on emotional intelligence. What the way that I look at it Chad is, it's understanding what's in me. Mh and, and and how, I present that to others and then understanding what's you know, sort of a social intelligence.
So understanding what's in in in, going on in the person that I'm with, and how I respond to that person based on what they're going through. So it's Absolutely. You know, it's really dialing into what the the emotion of the person, what what's going on in in the emotion of the person and how they're responding to the people around them. Yeah. It's having empathy.
It's it's not just self awareness, but it's a it's the ability to empathize. Yeah. Dialing into what a person has experience for sure. So if I if I want this in my life, I want emotional intelligence. I wanna grow it.
What's some easy steps maybe that I can begin to develop my emotional intelligence, Well, I again going back to the self reflection, but specifically in terms of emotional intelligence. You know, obviously, grow that self awareness of of what what's your what's your natural outlook on life for you Are you a natural opt or are you a natural pe? Because that's gonna tell you what your strengths and and we don't say weaknesses we say growth theory? Is. Okay.
So what are your, you know, it... Which is a strength in which is a growth area? Are you a an extra burden or or an introvert? Yes Introverts like people and love people just like experts. They just like them in smaller doses, But you don't always get to control when you're gonna be around big groups or private.
You know, smaller settings. So you gotta be able to compensate and and no, of, you know, you I think I think 2 things that that a leader needs to be able to give people. Therefore, go into your question of how they develop it is You gotta be able to give people hope. And as you were talking about empathy to others, you can't give what you don't have. So if you have a naturally bent outlook that's negative.
My wife tells me Chad. Y'all, you know, you tend to, you know, you tend to expect the worst and hope for the best. But I tell her, yeah, But that way you're never disappointed. You know? So...
But I do realize as a as a counselor and as a pastor when you're... Walking with people through a crisis. And I and I had to do this earlier this week, you got to give people hope, Yeah. And and people aren't stupid. If you're not genuine about it.
They're not they're not gonna follow you, They're not gonna receive it, So I had to... I had to through prayer through a lot of self evaluation through and self reflection, and then and then with some life experience, I had to develop and outlook that is that is hopeful. Only true victims have no choices. So I'm not a victim. I...
If I have the power to choose, then I have the power to give hope. And then go from a spiritual aspect, if I have a daily walk with my creator and redeem her, I can have hope And so I would say, that's 1 thing as a leader if you want develop it start with your own personal... What's your own personal outlook like? But then not only just hope but empathy, you know, do you have the ability as you just said if you it it to to understand and share the feelings of others? Yeah.
I made a hospital visit, literally just this week. And the person that was there in the hospital was having to be taken back for some some tests, a little procedure and they said they'll be back in about an hour. Well, this person that had had to be in the hospital with their spouse for the last 2 days and just, you know, looking at them in their body language, the look on their face, how they're, you know, I I wasn't gonna just say, well, you know what we'll be praying for you... I'm gonna I'm gonna go. I could tell this person needed.
You know, they they mentioned. They said, you're you're 1 of the first... Ones to come in the last 2 days. I've not been able to see anybody from the church. Well, so I decided, you know what?
I'm gonna stay, and I told him you look like you could use a walk when And they said, actually, I think I could. So we just... You know, we walked around the lobby of the, you know, the different lob that this pretty big hospital system and and and just... You know, I just empathize with Man. If I'm in their shoes.
I think I'd like to get out and walk and it don't matter even what I talk about. Just nice to talk to another human being since for 2 days. I've been keyed... You know, keyed up in a hospital room. Yeah.
You know, Romans 12:15 tells us, Ryan and rejoice with those who rejoice and weep with those who weep. We're we're commanded as Christians not just leaders to be empathetic. So if a person's honest with themselves that, you know what, being able to take the temperature of a room or what are the another person's going through? I'm not good at? They need to pray and start studying and how they can learn to be a better empathize and be a better give of hope.
Yeah. Those are 2 things I would say. And that's a that's a huge empathy is a huge part of of emotional intelligence for sure, and and I think evaluating how how we're approaching life and people, you know, in reference to your to the to the hope that you're speaking of you know, it's it's critical that we understand you know, how we're bringing ourself into that for, like, you, for instance, into that hospital room. And, you know, sometimes on my, group meetings and whatnot. I'll do an emotional intelligence check in, and I'll just I'll just ask everybody put the chat, on a zoom call or whatever put in put in the chat, what are you feeling?
And why are you feeling it? And it's just to... Just for everybody to kinda realize, how my how am I presenting my... How am I walking into this room? Am I walking in with, you know, hope or no hope or am I walking in sad?
Or am I walking... You know, am I walking in, you know, energetic. What emotion am I feeling and why Am I feeling it? And I think us understanding that will help us be able to do what ultimately we need to do, and that's build more potential relationships with the empathy. Yeah.
Absolutely. You made that person's... That person in the hospital, you made their day by just taking a walk and and and letting them... Let them bet to you a little bit. Right?
Yeah. You don't have to have all the answers. You just... But you're willing to be a listening here. Yeah.
You know, Joe Job's friends did their best help to Job before they started talking when they just sat with him in silence. It's when they started talking and and trying to... They they started trying to solve the problems and and identify the problems as when the real trouble began. You don't have to have all the answers. How many days did they just sit with him and and talk?
I forget. It it was a long time. But they just said with him. And and I'm and I'm telling you even that and and this is sort of a rabbit trail, but containment is so powerful with people. We we underestimate the power of containment and that's what that's what...
I mean, just sitting with somebody, our presence with them, and even, you know, even if they need to vent or voice things that and us just contain it and not not you know, respond in some negative way or, you know, f way. That's that's a powerful thing. It's very absolutely. We're talking about emotional intelligence. Absolutely.
Absolutely. So let's, Chad sort of pivot a little bit to emotional health and I and I told you we're gonna hit a bunch of variety of things today related to clarity of mine. But you... You're a counselor, and just curious, what are some challenges that you see people people facing today with their emotional health and your in your work. I know you work with a lot of pastors.
What's some challenges that you see people facing today. If I could someone up in 1 sentence, I'd say most people feel stuck. They feel stuck. Yep, they lack a clarity of mind due to, you know, maybe it's a situation that they're directly responsible for. That brought on themselves.
Or maybe it's a situation that's genuinely beyond their control. In either way, they may not lack they may lack the boundaries. To have in place that allow them to heal or grow. And again, it goes back to that, you know, they're feeling both helpless and hopeless. U.
And, you know, there... So there's a lack of emotional health, you know, you know, they have with, you know, people are or I should say that... People who lack emotional health. A common thing I see is there's a lack of patience. Now they team seem to have short fuses, you know, you talked initially about clarity of mine.
They're not good at staying focused or or and they're not good relational. Mh. You know, in in short, they don't, you know, they don't possess the fruit of the spirit. You know, that Yeah. That Paul talks about they're liking that fruit.
Yeah. But I think it goes back to their their stuck because they feel helpless and hopeless. And and And so that's... That being said, you know, again, if your first thing, if you're gonna practice emotional intelligence and help people build emotional health. You gotta give them hope, so you gotta possess a genuine outlook that, hey, this is not the end.
I don't I don't have all the answers, but I'm wanna, you know, quote, unquote, hold your hand or or take you by the shoulder, and we're gonna walk through this forest us together. Counseling not advice giving. It's... We're we're more of a... We're we're a guide, but but we don't just sit and tell people what to do.
We we we explore together, and we, you know, we we seek the answer out together. Mh. And so when you're talking about over, you know, your question was about how to overcome those challenges, It starts with just helping people build a support system and build a hope that they can't overcome. I may feel like I know in my head the 3 steps they need to do to get past this, but that doesn't mean it'll work for them. It's not guaranteed.
Or even if I tell them they're not guaranteed to do it. So the first thing is that, you know, give them a give them a support system and and give hope that you can overcome. Or Yep. In your mind, what would a good support system look like for a for a... You know, let's just again, let's just stick with a pasture.
What would a good support system look like? Well, start with peers, you know, And you go to, you know, I think 1 of our original... Questions we're talking about I wanna, you know, who who does someone run with? You know, are you You know, are you are iron sharpen iron. Are you who are your friends?
Do you have Yeah are all your friends of the same like mind and and and facing the same challenges and and and you're just wearing each other down, or are you linked up with people that can sharpen you and and maybe even give a little bit of constructive criticism that you trust them enough you're willing to take? I'm glad that you that you mentioned peers again because, you know, a lot of times people think, well, I... I just need a mentor in my life or you know, or I need a pastor and my life, which is is good. I recommend everybody having a pastor in a mentor and they're like, But I think you're you're gonna find your best day to day support from your peers. I think that's.
That's a huge... Because not only do you need their support, but they need your support as well and and there's something about a, a mutual give and take in my opinion that that really solidifies a relationship and and you're able to not only just take, but at times you're gonna give, and there may be sometimes where you don't... You don't give it all, and you just take. But you find that I find that in a peer support system, that works best, the give and take part. Absolutely.
Absolutely. Yeah. And and sometimes, you know, we need to feel like we're giving for us to really... A lot of times for us to get really vulnerable and transparent with 1 another, you know, sometimes it takes that other person, getting volume on transparent with with... And that's hard to, in a pastor to, you know, pressure or whatever relationship even if it's a pastor looking to their pastor or to a mentor.
A lot of times, that's a 1 way very important, by the way, very important relationships. Those those are very important relationships, but they're more of a 1 way relationship versus AA2 way. Most of the time. Absolutely and there's something about the... Change of relational nutrients with a appear that's super important.
Absolutely. Anything else that you, you know, a person that has that is, you know, finds herself in that stuck place that you talked about or lack of fruit, boundaries, patients. Anything else that wanted to I would say, okay. So, you know, the the overall is okay. Give somebody hope?
Okay. How do you, you know, so practically, what does that look like? Well, the first thing I do, I I I've asked them, what are their goals in life. You know, what are... If you feel stuck, A lot of times you feel stuck because it could be a combination of well I've tried things that aren't working or I don't...
Maybe we've forgotten where we're headed. So you know, for some, now I'm not talking about just leaders, but just people in general, you know, help them build life goals, or or exploring how to work. Yeah. Personal vision. It may be...
You know, I don't know how to get a better job. Well, let's look at your resume. Let's... How are you applying for jobs? Maybe you need to confront a problem in the family.
Let's rehearse that conversation. What does that look like? Okay? There's a situation somewhere that you need to put some personal boundaries in place. Let's explore what that looks like.
And so in that sense, you're you're... When you do those practical things, some people don't realize about communication. There's a difference between being aggressive and being assertive. Some people don't know how to ask for what they want? When Jesus came to that to blind Bart, he asked him, what do you want me to do for you?
That's a powerful question that amazingly most people don't know how to get detailed about. So you know, help people develop clarity by whether it's boundaries or just learning how to take practical steps because they don't have anybody helping. And let me let me just flip that question around as well, we've gotta get good at asking for what we need also and and we struggled with that a lot of times. You know, chad had a few if you needed something for me, I sure don't know it. You you look like you got everything together, Well, Likewise.
It and so it would take you say and run, I'm, struggling with this this and this. Can you help me? And a lot of times we don't do those kinds of things because we feel needy when we do that. Yeah. But the reality don't trust.
Maybe we don't trust. Or we don't trust. You know, it'll... In the reality of it is is is a lot of times, we, you know, if we don't ask for those things, we are not gonna get them. No.
We're not gonna get a people, not just look the you, you know, I'm in Alexandria. You're in you're in Dallas area. Me mosquito, you know, you're not just sitting around wondering okay. What what can I give ryan? What do I think that he needs?
No. That absolutely right. And, you know, it may be something tangible, like, a new job or, you know, that something like that or saving for something, but then it could be something deeper like, I have a child with this health challenge. And I'm doing what the doctors say, but at the end of the day, my stress level, I'm I'm hit... I'm I'm on empty, you know, regarding energy.
And there's not an immediate solve. There's not an there's not there's not a clear answer out there. But learning how to just walk with people through, you know, through what they're dealing with and Yeah. I may do some research to help them. I may do, you know, you know, I may I may speak from my own experience, but a lot of times, there are some things that there's not an easy answer.
And you just purely gotta trust God. But it's easier when you know you're walking with somebody else that's with you. Yeah. Nelson Nelson's Ser to me said it best. When he he wrote...
I I don't know if this is original with him, but I read 1 of his books. Where he said, we may not have it all altogether, but together we have it all. And that's why... I mean you can go from... Yeah, that's you need a church saying true.
That's why... That's why as leaders, you need peers and others, you know, you you need it you need a need a of us. You need you need... Why you know, you need a you need a you need a Timothy and and you need a stylus. We need you need those that are gonna be with you.
You Yeah. Even Jesus, he had a he had a circle of 12, but he had an inner circle of 3. Absolutely in his deepest darkest hour in the garden geth. Guess who he called on to to come and be with him. And that's it...
That was his support system. Even Jesus needed the support system, Who are we to say? Very powerful that we don't need him. Yeah. That's very powerful.
What would you say, you know, to thinking about tools and techniques, 1 of the most practical ones and maybe too obvious to even name here is if a person is struggling, they're stuck, there, you know, would be to get a counselor to hire counselor, for the person that is struggling with just the concept of counseling, which it has become a lot more prevalent today, there's not a stigma attached. I don't feel there is anymore. But what the person that's struggling to trust to be able to unpack things? They... What would you say to that individual?
I wanna know why why is it so hard? You know, I hear Bill all the time what's so hard. Okay. Why? And if they can't tell me, then it's, like, well, then let's let's talk.
Well, then they they end up unpacking. And I think that's that's the the simplest thing is, you know, it the... 1 of the things that can derail a person whether it's a person, just a satan in the church a leader if it's if it we're talking in in the Christian world secular, is just that that that not seeing the need for it. You, it's got a start there. That gonna there.
Yeah. So, you know, yeah, If they don't... If they have a hang up about counseling, It what's interesting as a lot of them when I ask what's your hang up, they can't really put it into words. For those that have been willing to be honest, they... Just boils down to what I can tell they haven't difficulty express.
They just don't wanna appear weak. But... Yeah. Know, it maybe be a quarter or I used earlier Needy. They don't wanna appear to be needy.
Yeah. And and Needy is not a bad word. You need. And I have it's important tell you Right. I...
My wife and I have been a consumer of therapy. We have Yeah. We we did primarily accounts. And we've done some. We've done some marriage counseling in our past.
We've done... I'll tell you children. I have... I have, you 3 amazing children I have a year old daughter named Jaden, a 12 year old daughter named kira, and a hurricane in the flesh. 9 year old son named Chandler, and my wife and we probably read more parenting books and we have gone to counseling, for for our son chandler.
Now he is a perfectly healthy boy, but I can say that after several rounds of testing and odd meetings of public school and everything else. We just... We have to... You know, Counselor told us this and my wife and I reminder. So if God solved fit to give us him to raise.
And I have no problem I'm screwing from the mountain tops. I've done counseling. And if I've done it, I think anybody, you know, you know, I think everybody should. But Yeah. I agree with you.
I think everybody should. Part of my life team is or part of my support system. Is I have a counselor on on hand, and I routinely meet with him, occasionally meet with him just to to maintain that relationship. In fact, I need to schedule an appointment with him. But when I'm in in great need and need to unpack something that I feel like is is more than just peer.
That I need a professional involved, then I'll call him make an appointment and and unpack it, and and he's always he, you know, he brings AAA different level of skill to the table that can get me on stock a lot of times. And and move some of those things, those, you know, maybe the lack of boundaries or lack of patients like you had mentioned them, They're, you know, maybe I'm feeling hopeless in a situation or or you know, whatever the case may be. A lot of times he's he's got a perspective that can help me and and, And it just helps helps me move past this things quicker. Absolutely. Absolutely.
Might... You know, my my my my theory of calcium that I as described to is cognitive behavioral. I would I would call myself a cognitive behavioral therapist. You know, I I believe it's forgive me for the the lack of the... The knowledge of the reference, but I believe it's in Proverbs that as a man thank it.
So is he? Yeah. Yeah, all our actions start, with a with a thought. And there is some debate about what's... What goes first the emotion or the thought.
You know, some emotions trigger thoughts, but some thoughts can trigger emotions. And, you know, but those... You know, it's it all starts in the mind. It all starts in the mind. There's a powerful book as that's called as a man think that is that references that it's it's a real short read, but a really powerful book.
That that I've read on multiple occasions. So let's let's just Cha dive a little bit deeper in emotional health. And sometimes there's there's some, common leadership derail. III write about it a little bit in my book. I've got a chapter on it.
I don't get into a lot of detail on it. But leaders, we'll display these leadership derail at times, you know, and I'm just thinking of, like things like passive aggressive behavior. You know, maybe they're they're over worry or things of that nature Mh. A lot of times they're blind spots. Their people don't actually even don't even notice that maybe they're being passive aggressive.
And they're usually rooted deeply in our end insecurities. I've got them. I know that we have because they hope as we all we all do. What are some other common derail that you would see in leadership that that maybe you could talk about a little bit. Well, this?
This may seem broad and simple, but, you know, the largest 1 that I I see a lot of, but at least that I perceive, and how somebody acts is is the is the lack of self awareness. Maybe they they they lack realizing that they're passive aggressive and how they, you know, the blind spots. Yes. You know, just not realizing how they interact in their relationships with their superiors and peers and subordinates. Some some people are just not good followers.
Yeah. Sometimes they lead to try to compensate for an insecurity. You know, the the second 1 is is is that maybe maybe they're aware, but they refused to change. Yeah. Go ahead.
I I was gonna say before your, before you move to the second 1, that's that's really where that emotional intelligence comes into play. Right? Oh, absolutely. That's where understanding our emotions and what's going on in us, and how that's interacting with others, how that's presenting to others that social intelligence even. That's so working on our emotional intelligence actually will help a lot in a in a lot of ways.
Yeah. And and what you're talking about. If a person doesn't, if their outlook is negative and they can't give hope if they if they don't know how to empathize with others. Mh. Yeah.
They're not... They're... Yeah, they're they're gonna get derailed a lot for sure, especially in ministry. Yeah. Go to your number 2, and I may have I may have messed you up there if you can remember were gonna say.
No. No. You're good. The other thing is that I know is... Because I've I've had this talk and this is where in counseling a lot is and and with leaders, it's not that they're not aware always.
Some not wonder. They're aware, but either they don't know how to change? Mh. Or they don't... Even if they're made aware, but they refuse to change because maybe they they have experiences that now they're cynical.
For some reason. Maybe they're too insecure. You know, as pride, that's the key word. They... There's a lot of pride.
Yeah. You know? And and and let me just say this with with you saying that. You know, Rightfully so, I think in a lot of cases they don't wanna change. But I think that that's where emotional health.
Digging into our emotional health, visiting with a counselor, unpacking these insecurities, insecurities. That's where that comes into play because I would imagine that a lot of that, like the the negativity, the Mh. The cy, that ego behavior, Lot of that is sort of defensive. Right? From her that we would have in our past.
And so it's deeply rooted in those insecurities, as you mentioned, that's deeply rooted in our emotional health. Right? Absolutely. You know, there's the, you know, pride... I know for me.
Pride is 1 of those things that I've had to take out to the back woods and kill numerous times over and over and over. It keeps coming alive. It keeps coming alive. It keeps coming like that living sacrifice. It just don't like to stay on the altar.
You know? And, you know, I've... I've not... I've not been able to graduate yet from it, but God keeps enroll... Re enrolling me in this course of learning about myself.
Of, you know, I'm naturally introvert more introverted than extroverted, You know, my my dad is an ex. His idea of an intimate 1 on 1 is with 15 to 20 other people. He just loves people. Well, I love people, but I like them in smaller doses. And so, you know, after church...
After a great service on Sunday, I'm shouting a man, but I'm ready to go home and take an nap. I'm worn out. And so part of it is is also once you learn yourself is learning to be not... Careful with this, not satisfied with things, but comfortable with... Okay.
This is the way God made me. So help me to flourish and thrive and If I need to counter it with something to be successful, know how to do that. Yeah. That keeps with me from being derailed. So before we continue on with the podcast, this episode is brought to you by Christian leader community coaching.
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Go to ryan franklin dot org and join the christian leader community coaching today and I look forward to seeing you inside the community now back to our podcast. So what you're what you're saying is is what I'm hearing you say is is good rhythm of life. You know, understanding yourself, knowing what drains your energy, and knowing what energizes you can really help with these, with these d derail, these insecurities. And and by the way... When I speak of a d derail just for sake of audience, I know you know what I'm talking about, but Yeah.
That that's things that would erode relationships. They drive people crazy in. You know, you may have a phenomenal person, phenomenally gifted person yet. You know, when they get tired and stressed. These things come out, and it's choppy roads.
It... 1 1 of the instance is not gonna destroy your relation ship. But over time, over months and years of having to deal with passive aggressive behavior or cy or ego behavior You know, can he erode the relationships around you and complete so. Knowing that you're introverted, knowing that you need to go re energize at times can help. Absolutely.
And it goes back to the whole thing with goals. You know, what's your goal? If I'm if I'm leading the church somewhere well, you know, first and foremost, And this is my... I get this from my dad because I took over this... My dad pastor this church for 40 years before I did.
And And so he was passionate before I was born. And because we're now almost 4 years into the transition. So you know, but 1 of the things he said... And and and this helps me kill my pride when I'm having to deal with the confrontation as a pastor what is my agenda? My agenda is to see people saved?
So if I get above the log jam, of, well, I don't like how you handled this situation or You're upset? Because you don't like how I handled it. What's the ultimate? What's the long term goal of And if it's the... You know, we're we're we're doing daughter works.
We're doing things, Well you know what? Those are... It's a blessing, but it's it's not always easy, and and there's... And and so you... When when you're working with other leaders and you happen especially if you're if you're...
If some of them are subordinate to you and you gotta deal with corrections on a staff or something, and you know, but if I know my ultimate goal is, I I want the church to be successful. So, you know, if if... If if the issue is my pride. I can kill my pride because the ultimate goal is the success of something, and that's what I can rejoice in. That's that's what that's what helps keep me from being derailed.
And, you know, sometimes it's just telling myself, Chad, someone out there knows better how to do this than you do. Yeah. That that helps me a lot. Keep keep keep me from thinking I've arrived, and Absolutely. Absolutely.
So, again, I I think we've covered this. Just in case there's something else there, how can leaders address those those end insecurities, you know, but to avoid them impacting. I know we heard rhythm of life and, you, you know, understanding yourself a little bit more clearly and knowing what drains you, what else? Anything else? Well, this...
The the direct? Question, what's making someone insecure. You know, how were they raised? Yeah. Is there a...
Is it a pastor or leadership philosophy they grew up with that that maybe they're repeating. Yeah. You know, I've, you know, I've... I know some that grew up with the philosophy of, hey. I want you to stand on my shoulders, and I wanna help remove every obstacle I can that was my, that could have been my downfall to help you be light years ahead.
Versus the 1 that said, well, if you think your called, jump out of the boat and if you drown, that just proves you weren't called. Both of those are very real philosophies that still exist today and a per how a person grows up under those affects their outlook and their relationships with others. And could limit our thinking, limit our beliefs even. Yeah. You know, what's what's...
Is there something that's causing someone to stop hoping or trusting. Are believing in in the in the possibility of something future. And I'd get that from, there's a book that While, it's it's not a recent read for me. It's it's not an old book, but Carrie New off has a book called didn't see it coming. Yeah.
It's a... Fabulous reading, good leaders, and he talks in there about cy. And a couple of quotes that that I love from this book. We actually just did this book with a group of of ministers, group of pastors, that I'm a part of, and he he writes this. He says cy that S never seek to change the world.
They just tell you why the world can't change. If you're a past who's very cynical, and you're real good at shooting down new ideas. And refusing, you know, and and we're losing sight of sure of, what really matters and we're harp on something that it may be questionable if that really is as important. As... You know, I'm not talking about message or doctrine, but But Yeah.
But just we get... We have our hang ups on things. You know, that... That's important. We get Zen just tell you why the world can't change.
The other thing is is it says that curious people are never cynical and cynical people are never curious. Which is why I go back to, you know, asking, you know, instead of asking, you know, what if this happens it from a negative standpoint Start asking why not? Why can't we do it? Yeah. Makes sense.
So I would say to people, you know, that are, you know, you're if you're if you're addressing how to address your insecurities, I think from Carrie New words get curious again. Yeah. I love that we're curious. I think if if we brought curiosity into our circles more. That we would have a much more rich environment.
My goodness. Rather rather than racism bring curiosity. A lot of times I start my my Zoom group meetings that way, just remind, you know, If you're questioning somebody in here or and and something negative comes to mind, switch that to curiosity. Because Yeah. You may learn you may learn something.
Yeah. You know, I I did my Phd dis rotation on leadership. In pastor roll succession because it's something that me and my dad went through. We did a 5 year transition plan here. And 4 years into it, It's it's going well.
But 4 years after it's over with I should say it's it's going really well. But in my studies, III interviewed 5... Print churches, that that I had to I had to interview the outgoing pastor or now a predecessor, a successor who was the current pastor, and then 2, members of the church that were key involved people like a board member or a staff member that were present before da after the transition took and I did that in 5 different churches that were all part of the Upc. And in my findings, 1 of the things that I found place was that in every case, even though there were different locations, every transition looked a little different, there were things that were that were, you know, cult sure was different. Background was different, you know, somewhere were inside or somewhere were successors bought in from the outside.
Only 1 of them was from a father to a sun. Sure but all of them, they were the leaders, the the the predecessor or at the time the outgoing pastor was intentional. Mh. So I would ask a leader... And and beyond...
That was just about pastor roll succession. But I would say, to to your question on on on about this, what are you being intentional about? Back to that clarity of mind? You know, if if you if you claim to be intentional about something is it is it is it what bleeds from you around others? Is it what you're dreaming about talking about?
All of that. Yeah. That makes sense. So Chad as we kind, cl bring bring this to a close. I've got a couple of more questions.
I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna end with my typical question that I ask everybody, but the last question that I wanna ask you in regards to, you know, clarity of mind emotional health. I how do you see the the integration of emotional health and these these mind topics and leadership evolving in the church world. What are the what are the trends that you're seeing? Sure. Well, for 1, I think we're already there, Ryan, as far as it is it integrating?
Because I know the last several years at General Conferences. I've done... I've done some of the the seminars for for different. Areas of the Upc, we... You know, whether it's in youth or in the local church on emotional health, educating, whether it's pastors or Saint whoever comes to those seminars talking about emotional health already.
I'm actually of gonna... I'm a 1 of the 1 of the speakers at a conference over in Europe in Belgium Wage this year that 1 of our of national leaders is hosting, and it's just about emotional health, and he's been doing it for a few years now and he's and he's got quite a, quite a a gathering that that that's that on a growing that that's that's coming because of that, So as a counselor for the last 14 years, pastor, last nearly 10 years, senior pastor since 20 20, I've been blessed to rob shoulder with a lot people in my academic journey, cast experience in a pastor who... I've been working to bring this awareness to the church for decades. And so I... I...
Think you're seeing more of that already there. I would agree. For sure. I would agree. And, you know, it goes for me, you know, Wanna...
I think you're talking about the the current trend or how this is evolving. I think it goes back to intentional. You know? The, you know, what are we being intentional about? I think you've seen a lot of intentional take place and especially since Covid.
Bringing in awareness to mental health. Oh, my goodness. Yes. That's definitely all across the world. That's a big thing.
Well, and and the statistics will tell you Bar statistics will tell you that, church... Pastors and church leaders. The the trend is towards burnout and quitting ministry and all of that is astronomical increased. And so, I I don't think there's any way that we can ignore this thing called emotional health and emotional intelligence and keep, you know, learning about these things in leadership. If we don't move towards that, I think I think we're setting ourselves up for failure.
The business world is spending billions of dollars a year on this stuff. And it's for reason because it works. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. And why not in the church as well.
Why not as we're as we're pursuing to grow ministries and churches and different things. We we absolutely need this. Yes, sir. I totally concur. So just to as a wrap up question, it can be related to this topic can be Anything you want.
What's 1 thing that you wish you could tell your younger cell? 2 things don't don't be afraid to ask for help. You kinda said that already a little bit. Yeah. That's a big 1.
I know I I know me. I can be a perfection is I'm not careful. So, you know, they'll be... You know, have fun along the way. Line is short.
You're... Have have fun all the way right there. Yeah. I'm very goal oriented. I went on my ducks in a row, when everything just beating...
If if there's... If things are out of order, and, you know, k, you know, Sometimes God gives us the gift of chaos for a reason. So, you know, what it's right. Ask for help and have fun, I love that, I was... I'd asked myself a list of questions every Sunday.
I call it start of the week site. And 1 of them is is what did I do... What was significant about last the week before, just to sort of reflect and and and and reflect on the good things that have that have gone on. And last Sunday, I I wrote in my, for that the answer for that question, that I didn't have a ton going on, and that was a good thing. And and I was able to sort of slow down and just kind of enjoy the week, but I've got...
Absolutely just being just being transparent. I've got out, and talk myself into that. I've gotta make sure that I'm... That I am slowing down that I am enjoying the moment. So you...
You're you're speaking my language there for sure. Well, doctor Frank. This this has been a a tremendous conversation. Thank you so much for giving. Me and our audience, your your time today.
And if if people wanna connect with you in some way, can they find you online in social media or, Yeah. Or what. Look look my name Chad Flowers on Facebook or Instagram. You email me at chad flow at g mail dot com. You know, those are those are probably the best ways to get a hold of me and anything I can do to help.
It's an honor ryan to be with you in your audience. Today. Thank you for the invite again. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, and I'll I'll put those links in the show notes for.
Thank you again. So this concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin. Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian leader made simple podcast.
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