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The Secret to Emotional Strength for Christian Leaders with Dr. Cindy Miller

In this episode, Ryan welcomes Dr. Cindy Miller, a highly respected pastor, counselor, and professor, to uncover "The Secret to Emotional Strength" for those in ministry and leadership. Dr. Miller shares pivotal experiences from her journey, emphasizing the importance of balance and emotional resilience in the life of a Christian leader. They discuss practical ways to recognize burnout, prioritize emotional well-being, and integrate rest amid a busy ministry schedule. Packed with valuable strategies, this conversation offers essential guidance for leaders seeking to strengthen their emotional foundation and sustain their impact over the long haul.





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Transcript


And that's what is so shocking. We do not lack information. We lack application. You know? We we are overloaded with information.


People probably could answer our your questions as well as I can with, you know, my education experience, They know. But wow that... What am I gonna do now that I know? And I I think that we're responsible for this... What we know?


Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need to grow your leadership effectiveness and enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session so you don't miss the single episode. I'd also greatly appreciate any reviews, likes and shares that you can give me. It just helps me extend my reach to more people.


So leaders, I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaotic. You're struggling to feel effective and you're just not enjoy leadership as much as you could be. And so to help you, after many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian leader blueprint that'll guide you to find clarity, in your life and leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life. It'll help you see yourself more clearly to leverage your strengths and you'll produce more productive relationships.


It's a step by step guide to leadership transformation. And I have that in 2 formats now. I have a free short guide that you can find on Ryan franklin dot org, and I have a book, the Christian leader blueprint. And you can find that in any format, including an audiobook book wherever you buy your books. I have a few more things on my website that you may be interested in, so just head on over to Ryan franklin dot org and check it all out.


And now, let's get to our session. Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Franklin, and on the show today. We have a very special guest, doctor Cindy Miller. Doctor Miller is a seasoned minister, counselor, professor, and speaker.


Who brings a wealth of knowledge to the topics of leadership and pastor care and personal development. And I can't wait to dive in to today's conversation with it. But before we do, I wanna tell you a little bit more about her, Cindy lives in new Jersey with her husband Stan Miller, who is not only her best friend, but also her ministry partner, and together they founded Calvary Tab in Writes, New Jersey. She holds a Phd and pastor care and counseling serves as a professor at Graduate school of theology. And in addition to that, she's authored 5 books.


She also is the host of less talks, less talk podcast podcasts where she tackle a wide range of issues for ministry life to personal development for ladies. Cindy travels the globe. She speaks at conferences all over the place. She provides counseling, consultations for Upc churches and clergy. So doctor Miller, welcome to the show.


Oh, I'm honored or to be here. Honored to have time with you. Yeah. I've been looking forward to this for a for a long time. It's been a little while since we've initially talked about this back in the spring, but I'm so...


You're, you're busy. I mean, you're just so busy. I couldn't couldn't get us on schedule with you. Oh, yeah. Well like I'm gonna blame you for the food.


But, I'll take that. That's okay. I'll take that. I won't tell anybody how busy you are. Oh, no.


No. This been their our whole thing today will be boy and they're like, I. What do they do about their service. That's right. Well, we are gonna talk about that a little bit before but before we jump into that.


That main topic. Would you mind just, like, sharing some key moments of your journey that got you to where you are today with your education and your your career path? Absolutely. So I grew up in Houston, Texas? No.


I'm not gonna take you I'll way back to my job. But I grew up in Houston. I and it realized you were a Texas girl. I am with text absolutely. And it's so funny.


Once you're... You know, you're you're from texas, you're always from Texas. So when people even... Just a couple years ago. I realized when they said, where are you from?


I say, I'm from Texas, but I lived in New Jersey and Like, I got... I gotta get this turned around here. I've actually lived in New Jersey longer than I lived in Texas, but I grew up there and had such a great life, you know, my wonderful pastor, great parents, but not perfect. You know, my parents wonderful loving, good parents, not perfect. So, you know, I I grow up I I mary moved to New Jersey, and I'm kinda just living this out life that, was what I know.


You know, that this is what women do. They... You know, I I never thought about. Pursuing a Phd or being a professor. And that just wasn't on my radar.


But, you know, sometimes, Brian, the largest baby steps us through life. You know, he gives us a desire And it's a... The desire is on level with what we know. Because sometimes if the dream is too big or it's unknown to us, it's we would we would reject it because it's... So we can't figure it out or brain.


Would overwhelm. Absolutely. And so he just kinda baby stephanie me. I was, a young mom, I wanted to understand more about parenting, so I was looking to take some classes. And so, honestly, my beginning, Was really just about personal development like, oh, I think I should go and take some classes, and then it was something came alive in me and like, oh, I think I need to take a lot more.


And so then you find yourself you know, coming to the end of 1 degree and and thinking what's next. Well, by the time, I was through with... I had a few degrees, a couple, you know, undergrad stuff. And we had we had started this church and we were church cleaners, and we started church in rights down, and it felt like so many people were coming and we were... It just felt overwhelmed by...


The problems. I thought surely, you know, when my pastor had his. He didn't have all this crazy that's going on, You know, it must just be the zoo jersey people. And so I I thought about taking some counseling classes to be more equipped for ministry. But here's the truth of the matter.


The lord sent me into my counseling program to do a work in me. And that's what I've really come to discover about my journey as several months is probably the spring before I even applied to my program. I woke up 1 morning. And I felt like the Lord woke me up, and he said you're going on a journey of growth, discovery and revelation. And I had no I idea what that meant, but I felt so much excitement, like, he had just given me an invitation to the greatest adventure of my life.


And not long after that, the doors begin to open up. There was some conversation. I was introduced to a program for counseling that I was accepted into. And it just kind of after that moment with the Lord that morning, it was just, like, it moved so quick. I could barely keep up with the lord.


And I entered the counseling program with the idea. I was gonna help a few people, and the lord just did such a work, a healing work, a maturing work, a greater level of understanding how he's at work. In my life it was just absolutely life changing. And after that, so I finished my master's program, and I was thinking, I'm, you know, I guess I'm done, you know, I wasn't thinking, and then I received a scholarship, go to another school for a year of post postgraduate studies, and I I don't know how much of this you really wanted, but but... I was I was late very interested in this.


Okay. I was ladies president for New Jersey Delaware District at the time. And I was coming. It was our ladies conference in May. I was finishing up my year post postgraduate studies and systems theory Bo and family family systems.


And... Thinking, what am I gonna do with all this education. You know, What what does this even mean? I mean, I feel like I'm pouring it there our young church, but or what what do you want me to do? And I remember sitting on the platform at ladies conference and the Lord again spoke to me and said this will be your last conference as Ladies president.


And and I I felt in that room... And I had loved it. I'd served in ladies magic for 12 years. I loved every ounce of it and still do. I'm still heavily bob with blaze street.


But at that moment, I knew it I was like, you've you gotta let this go. You've gotta release this. So in a moment, God gave me this understanding. You know, here's the thing Ryan. I don't know if you're like me, but I didn't trust myself because I loved what I was doing so much that I thought if I don't get up and say something at this conference.


Because, you know, the the the district boats and right at around the corner, then I can walk away from this moment with the Lord and hold on to what I know and love. So at the end of the conference I got up, and I made this just real brief, but it was, like, Thank you all. I've love being your ladies president. This gonna be my last conference as president, you know, I won't be... Because I did not trust myself.


I I was gonna hold on to it. And it... And I felt like the lord honored that, like, I was, like, Lord. If you're telling me this, I don't know what's ahead, but I'm not gonna hold on to things and and lose out on other opportunities. And it was, like, within weeks that I was contacted by Gs.


To see if I'd be interested in pursuing, a life with them as a professor working with them. And so that began to unfold, I went into my Phd program, and I hear we are. 22 years later, or, you know, I'm I'm professor of practical theology and program director for our master of Arts Ministry for our master of D, and also, which we're... Very excited. We just rolled out our new doctor ministry program.


So... Yeah. Yeah. I think the Lord had something something in store for me. Absolutely.


Well, I admire you for, being willing to step away from such a prominent position and, you know, pursue the... What you felt that the Lord wanted you to to move towards. That's not easy. No easy thing. It's not.


It really isn't. We wanna hold on. But thank you for your kind words, but I... But, you know, the Lord. He's so...


I think he would have let me stay and do that, like, he gives us choices. And if I had said, oh, no, Lord. I love... I love this so much. It'll...


He would have allowed that, but sometimes, you know, holding on... Holding on you missed out on some really great opportunities. It's so true. And now with the influence that you have at, you're you're making a. Worldwide impact, not just a district, but you're you're making an impact around the world.


People... It's not just a national school. It's people travel over Of across Australia in different places We're so delighted we love international students. Yes. For sure.


Were you wear a ton of hats, your professor counselor, as I mentioned, and you mentioned minister pastor. Probably more that that that we don't even know about maybe that you don't even know about. Oh, I just hit it, you know, it's like, oh, yeah. I am responsible for that. I better take care.


Yeah. Yeah, and I'm making light of that, but you do wear a lot of a lot of hats. And I have a 2 part question for you first. What does balance mean to you? And then secondly, what strategies have helped you...


Maintain a healthy work life balance in the midst of being such a highly productive person. Well, balance. So I I have this this the working theory about balance in my life? I think most of my life is out of balance. I mean, this is...


Just bear with me, but it's not out of control. So in my drug, let's talk. 1 of the, chapters in there. It it... Out of balance, but not out of control is...


But I clearly, even to this day, the book is a little bit older. I remember writing that chapter. I was sitting in my I living room in my front as a fire, and I'm... I am at great peace Right? I I am love, and I'm writing this chapter of this but, my house, we'd had a flood in the basement.


My mom was really sick struggling with some health issues. I have a friend that was going through a difficult situation. I couldn't. Just was hurting. I couldn't do anything about it.


You know. So all around me, like was still going on. Real life was happening. And no balance about that. And and nothing you can do, you know, Yeah.


The floods happened, you know, hurricanes happened, you know, a couple of years ago. Our church had water damage we lost everything but the sanctuary down to the studs. We had to rebuild, you know? And at the same time, I had a health issue and a loved 1 passed away and You you don't... You have no control.


You know, life is just coming after you faster than what you can fill, you can handle and sign. But so it's out of balance, but it does not have to be out of control, and it does not have to be chaotic. I think that's where we really get into understanding the rhythm of our life, what we can handle when we need to step back, how to let go of certain things. So I think the first part of it is, for me, personally, the goal of living a daily balanced life. I will be disappointed in myself, because I'll feel like I have this expectation, I should do that, and if I'd am not balanced every day, I'm a failure.


So I have released myself from that, and then I'm saying you know what? What do you need to focus on for today. What is what is right in front of you today. And, you know, certainly, I do keep a calendar. I keep kind of a planning note notepad calendar, and I have my responsibilities?


Because, you know, I don't want to... I don't wanna hinder other people for making progress in projects and things, and I have, my own personal projects that I I wanna work on. But what's in the day? And sometimes because we're so busy living for tomorrow and next month, the next... Fear in the next big event that I lose today.


You know, over the weekend, I was I was out. I minister at a conference that came home Saturday night administered at my un home church and then I had my family over for dinner had dinner with my family, and then I had my granddaughter over for sleep over or slumber party. You know, was that, the wisest planning in the world. Probably not, but it was not out of control. You know?


Yeah. So I I don't know if that really answers the question as you... 1. And and thinking about the tactics that you would use for that balance. You know, I'm, I've heard you talk about and I can't recall exactly what you were saying at at 1 point, maybe maybe it was at district conference this past year.


But you you were you were speaking of how you you you actually, maybe, you know, have some chaotic days like that, but then you purposely put put in days of rest and things of that nature as well, which We'll talk a little bit more about rest, but but, you know, that's part of your rhythm. Right? Absolutely. So my weekend was very busy. I minister out administered in my hub church.


But when I leave church on Sunday. That is my time. You know I, if I don't have that 24 hours after church on Sunday into the next day, that's time I wanna be with my family because that they're they're my love. They're my energy That being with my family feeds me. I don't I don't work on any projects.


I'm not worried about on Sunday night what's happening on Tuesday. I thought about that, last week, you know, I've already thought about that. That's on my master planner. And so I I take naps. I spent time with my family.


I laugh. I 10 place. Tell me tell me tell me about that master planner. I mean, I'm curious about that that gives you the freedom to be lazy On for that 24 hours after Sunday. What is that what does that kinda look like you're planning for the week ahead, kind of understanding what you have?


My my master planner is is just laid out in front of me week by week. Every day of the week is on their. Priorities are listed, you know, what I'm concerned about? And so I... You know, I I like color so I have a color coding little thing going on and probably just entertain myself more than anything.


But I I feel like if there's something I need to remember, I don't wanna keep carrying it in my brain because that's... That's just gonna keep me distracted. So everything goes on this calendar plan. And whether it's 3 weeks or a month or whatever... Like, 6 months down the road, it's there.


And I I do so I take, like, the 24 hours, but usually on Monday evening after I feel like, you know, okay. I don't have a set time because if I'm, you know, doing something. But before I go to bed on Monday evenings, I'm looking at the week? I'll pull it out. And Okay.


Okay. What my week looking like, and, you know, what do I need to be thinking about for that for the week. But then again, On... On Thursday evening or Friday depending on if I'm flying out for the weekend or not. I review the next week.


I review the next 2 or 3 weeks. I'll just split through the pages and refresh it in my mind make some notes of how I've updated where I'm at. What's been done, what still needs to be done. So I don't ever felt feel like I'm just carrying it all in my brain or dropping things because I didn't know they were coming? I I find that to be extremely helpful for me.


Is to... It's a little exercise I do on Sunday evening called store of the week site. Just kinda gives you some vision for your week. Sounds like you you kinda do that same thing, and you you just check in occasionally and it helps you release those those tasks and those things, and, you know, you know you have a podcast coming up or you have to teach a class or whatever you can you can kinda compartment that a little better if you if you give vision to your week and understand what you have. And then you can rest for 24 hours if you...


If that's right can schedule without. I think 1 thing that happens a lot, and maybe I don't know. Maybe you can speak to this to me. But what about... All those unexpected things.


Like, I have my beautiful calendar. I have my master plan. And then, you know, then somebody's like to growing in that meeting at you, like, oh, we need a department meeting or this came up or And, you didn't take this on, you know, if people don't have have a way of sorting that out. I would I would feel like I was drowning. I don't know How do you handle those last night, you have this great plan.


And all of a sudden that's brace, like, throwing things at you. What do you do? And I I'm here you're talk too. Well, you're you're you're you're turning this back for hell on me. I wanna know what you do.


I do... Right. I'm you're guessing. I can show you hosted podcast as well. Thank you Not too much fun.


III do have... I do have... You know, as a busy assistant pastor, I I do have a quite a bit of things that are that are given to me you know, at various times and emergencies and and whatnot, you know, 1 thing, I I'm very thankful I'm afforded at the at Po a personal assistant. And so she can filter a lot of that stuff for me. Those things that are that are, thrown at me and sort of we have built 10 times where we'll meet and talk about things, you know, from the usually daily, we'll have a you know, a 30 minute here hour here, where we where we talk through those things and we can deal with those compartment versus them all just coming sporadically at me through the day.


But I also have that as well for people that have my cell phone and and things of that nature, And and I I have found that personally, I've just got build in a little bit of margin in my day. Right. To deal with those things. And so I may have to push them off for a couple of hours, But I... But I'll deal with it at some point in the day.


And and and talk and talk through it. But but I... It's, you know, sometimes, and and reality of it is, is sometimes I just have to tell people. I, I'm sorry. I can't get to it now.


But after, and I use you know, same thing with my marriage or, you know, whatever if if I'm dealt... If I'm not in a appropriate place to deal with something in that moment, I... I would love to be able to deal with that, but I just can't right now. Can we can we talk about this, you know, at such a such time or after dinner or after Mh. You know?


Well, understand I think 1 of the things that helps me is... Is that your... The keyword is margin. When I look at a day, and I can't... And I'm having to ride all around all the edges to get it.


I know that's not realistic. And I'm gonna let myself down. I'm gonna let others know. So not over scheduling our ourselves is really important knowing that the unexpected and the unplanned is gonna invade our lives. You know If we want to have some kind of rhythm and balance life, it is to say.


This is gonna happen. So breathing room is miss, you know, in necessity. But also just being able to say no. You know, I would love to... Just having the the ability to Yeah.


To understand, I'm not in a place where I can do anything about this and just be guilt free that I'm saying no. You seem to be pretty good at that. Is there is there any particular... To I I know that that comes with good character growth, and I'm and... You know, you've you've likely experienced a lot of counseling yourself as as, you know, counseling people, but you've also been counsel and have experienced a lot of character growth as you've gone through, school and you know, just being with the Lord and and over the years.


What's... Is there any is there other... Any other tactics you who to say no about without guilt. Yeah. Well, I think think for me, in the beginning, I said yes, for probably some of the wrong reason.


Now this is... This is where on the surface, I really believed I was doing the right thing, and I wanted to do everything to place the Lord. So my yes is were about. Well this is for the Lord. So I felt like, you know, I needed to do it.


Mh. And and some some teaching from, you know, others like, oh, if the board opens the door, you gotta walk through it. And that is true. Absolutely, And I've tried to always obey that. But Ryan, at some point your years of experience your education or get...


Do it... That's gonna open doors in the lord to say, if you wanna walk through it fine or he may say no, don't walk through it, but our ego wants to walk through it, you know, and separating that's really important. What I I learned more about saying, no, through the scripture. U. So as a church planter, being in ministry of my district.


A wife and a mom and and working on my education. It was a lot. You know, there's was just a lot going on. And so I remember 1 day, I was just reading the bible just for reading. I wasn't reading it it's, like, God didn't direct me to a certain passage, but ultimately, he did forth.


But I was reading on the master with the servants who he gave the talents to. And and he left for the trip and came back, and and they came to give an account for the work that... What they had done investing those talents. He was pleased, well done enter in, but that last servant, made excuses. I hid it in the ground.


I was afraid lots of excuses if why he didn't do anything with his talent. And the master of course, was very unhappy with him, and we know the story. And at that moment, the lord spoke to me. So, of course, he we have to remember, I was in a very overwhelmed state saying, yes, way too many things trying to be god junior to the whole world, you know, being his right hand woman, and he spoke to me and he said, when you take what I've given you when you take your education, your experiences, your growth, everything. And you pour it into people who do nothing with it.


You are like the servant who buried the talent in the ground and I'm not pleased with you. And wow. In that moment, I realized I am accountable to god. More my time, for where I invest what he's put to me everything I have... Has come from him.


And if I'm just pouring it out, you know, because I... I've been asked to, and it's not advancing. There's no return on that investment He's not pleased with the way I'm steward my time and resources. So that was my first awareness that I need to really check in with him about what I'm doing. And then also, my ego got under control, and I realized because I was asked if I I couldn't, they went right on and found other people to do it.


It wasn't like the world was gonna fall apart if I said, no. So I think I think the ability to say know is understanding god word you want me to invest. I wanna invest where I get a return and also realizing that because the door open. It doesn't mean I need to walk through it. There may be someone else who could do that job and maybe even do better than me.


Would you say that that having a personal vision for your future also help with that, like, you knew what to say no to because you knew where you were headed towards. Some... Well, I think there... I think a personal vision, sometimes you have a vision that's very clear, and you can see down the road. But sometimes you can only see the next step.


But I think staying true to doing the next thing is going to you wake up and look back and say look what the Lord has done. So yes. Personal vision, but God's vision is always gonna be bigger than ours. And so Yeah, I have I have enough light on the path to do the next thing. Sometimes or 5 things, but, yeah, Just staying true to that next thing and not getting distracted.


When you said that you were no longer gonna be the lady's president. Anymore. Did you know the next step? I don't. I did.


I had no idea. I just knew in that moment that he had clearly said that to me and that I needed to let this go? Well, I'm... At that point Served him long enough to know. He's he wasn't asking me to let go of something, because he doesn't like me.


You know, and he he, you know, shutting me down forever, I knew that if he was asking me to let go of something back bay. Yeah. That he had something for me. But apparently, in in God's great mind, I wasn't gonna be able to do both well, and so I had to let go of 1 to take on the other. And I hear a a lot of trust in your voice, you know, which only comes with relationship with with the Lord.


You trusted the Lord in that moment and stepped out on a on a limb, really. Mh. And and pursued what... What he... So your trust in the Lord even helped you to be able to say no to 1 thing, and yes to another thing.


Oh, I'm not the truth. You know what? He's still faithful. But we have to learn. We have to...


It's like any relationship you have those highs and lows and rocky places. And but I've learned to trust him even when I don't understand or have a clue or like it. Yeah. Your yours have made me aware. He's really only for my good.


You know, it doesn't always feel good, but it it is it is about kingdom purpose, and he's he loves me. You know? And so Absolutely. You know, sometimes change feels like great loss, and being asked to give something up, feel scary. And, you know, and and I know people are listening and they're...


You know, maybe could take this the wrong way. You know, we don't just walk away from everything in a moment or emotionally walk away. Like, oh, I have an emotional moment at the altar. I think I'm just gonna everything up goes sit on a mountain and then, you know wait on the lord do open the next thing. I think there's wisdom that comes with that as well.


But, yeah, just knowing and knowing his voice. You know, is this the lord or I in a bad place and things didn't go the way I wanted him to. So any little hint that he's gonna let me off the hook. I'm gonna take it. No.


I This was an experience where everything was great. You know? And, the best of attendance that's the best confidence. The highest that best offering. You, Everything was...


But how kind of him to let me walk away at the height of it. You know? Like, hey. Right, You know? This is great.


So I don't know. That... It's a real balancing act, making those decisions? So when people are struggling in these areas of boundaries in their life, being able to say no guilt when they do say no. Those types of things.


Mh. You know? It all of these things can build in an individual's life and can lead them down a road where they find selves in a tough place emotionally and work sometimes is overtaking their rest. And everything else in their life, and and there there's no sense of you know, rhythm to, you know, we we all have work that's gonna overtake our rest times. But Right But when we have that rhythm, we can swing back to what grounds us.


Well, this individual that's in a tough emotional place, their rest and everything else in life is out of whack, and they've they've moved past just a rough week. Like we all have, and they're beginning to see some signs of burnout. And I'm... I wanted to ask you, what do you typically see as signs of burnout and what advice would you give this person? Well, it...


I think people start feeling like, I wanna... I want to come late and leave, you know, They're looking for exits. And, unfortunately, if they... If they don't tend to what's causing it, leaders have have created exit strategies that will forever keep them from return each of the thing that they feel like it's the problem. Through moral failure or just really horrific decisions that they make.


But they start looking for exit strategies. You know, they report just not able to get out of bed, just depressed, no vision. No, you know, almost robot kind of moving through the day, just producing the most limited amount, no joy. Absolutely. No joy.


So you'll start hearing a lot of that kind of language, Emotional energy is gone. Mh temporarily completely gone. You know, They have no energy. There's nothing feeding now. Everything is draining them.


Of course, I always refer anyone that's talking to me and my students read the book, leading on empty. Are you familiar you're, you know, we're all familiar. Such Yeah. Great. Great resource to have.


But 1 of the things that I took from that book borrowed from him as the fills and drains. And I... I do Have some things I do on a regular bit. Like, I believe in assessment. Like, I'm assessing.


On a regular basis Was like, what is this week like? Why is it going great? Why is it not going great? I I believe in having good reflection time, you know, that theological reflection that pause action pause to reflect action or corrective action. I believe in that highly as kind of almost...


I probably do it daily. You know, It's not just like, on the counter. I think it's so ingrained in me It's now I think a bill But I do believe that the first thing that people need to do when they're looking at, like, I have lost my joy is to really look at, you know, what's draining you. Well, you know, I cleaning my house that isn't an exactly a bill. It's a necessity that's not gonna go away, paying bills.


You know, there are some things are that 1 person that's being difficult. There are some things I have no control over. But the things I do have control over, I should be mindful, you know, who I let speak into my lie, where I invest my time. But when you look at it, most people who are headed to burn out is because everything's draining them, and they're not doing anything to refill that tank so to speak. And so, you know, if like, like I said, my busy weekend, what did I do to end it?


My family, my children and her children came for dinner, my grand girl stayed over. You've got to you've got to offer brains with the good things that bring you joy live. Yeah. So, you know, typically, people would think, well, I'm an introvert, and I'm doing extra activities and I gotta go be away from people. That's...


You said that you went to your family, which is more people. You're gonna... You know, No. But they're much bigger people. Well, and that's that's the point I wanna bring out is a a lot of people think they need to withdraw and detach from people to to get energy again.


And the reality of it is is they just need, save people that are gonna fill them up. Right? I think so I think the temptation when you're depressed or you're burning out is isolation because because if I'm isolated if I'm in my office with the door closed, But no one's talking to me. They can't ask anything of me. So it's a self protective strategy.


So let me protect myself from further demands by being alone. Because being an introvert doesn't mean that you need to isolate. It just think you don't need a party. You know, you just that 1 or 2 or few, you know, that's gonna help you to renew. And and when my family all around me, I mean, my my kids maybe at the dinner table just talking about life, and and my grandkids might be playing a game, and I'll be in the recliner with a blanket just listening.


It's kind of dosing spell. And and it's just like they're all the people I love the most or around me this fills my tank. You know. Yeah. But again.


But knowing that knowing that about you, knowing what resets you is super important and and that's 1 thing that resets you. Anything else that that sort of that maybe maybe is not even relative to you, but you've seen in others that would reset them. Yeah. I... Well, I think that it's really important to know yourself.


And Mh. Sometimes people can't figure that out too well. You know. So 1 of the reasons I think people overload their calendar is they just really do not know who they are. And 1 way, if you don't know, 1 way to really figure it out is not who Am I, but who am I not.


I am not. That's That's really good. Yeah. You know. So we're we're much quicker to recognize what we're not.


Well, I'm not the worship leader at my church for a very good reason. I am not the keyboard player for a very good reason. I am not. So I can make this list of things I am not and, you know, I I can remember years ago being invited to this southern country, and they said, like, we're gonna have this evangelist crusade. Thank the Lord.


I said, I am not available You know, like, why they thought that was gonna be a good Of no idea. You know? So I am not these things, but if you wanna talk about heart and why, you know, I'm your person. So Sometimes we get overloaded because, you know, hey, when you come preach this evangelist crusade through the country, 45000000 will be there our ego goes yes. No.


You have to know. I am not any advantage. So I am not this. I am not this. But but then on the flip side is by knowing those things, then you can start reflecting, but I am this, and I am there.


Yeah. And that's where I need to invest, my time and attention. So before we continue on with the podcast, this episode is brought to you by a Christian leader, community coaching. Are you a Christian leader who is overwhelmed by the complexity of trying to figure out how to grow your team? I wanna introduce to you our Christian leader community coaching program.


We have an easy to use online platform that has a full archive of courses, supportive community, live group coaching and elements that are custom mis specifically for your team. And I've personally seen the quick and enormous impact that it can have on a team of leaders who are focused together on learning and mastering the skills needed to grow their leadership effectiveness and enjoyment. And we wanna be a part of that with you. We wanna help you create and implement a plan. The community is very much affordable, but I would say that you can't afford not to have focused growth within your team.


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But knowing what you're not. Can help you reduce the energy drain as well. Oh, absolutely. Could saying yes to everything. Yeah.


Yeah. Know and you be... Working balance. And and here's the here's the issue with that we may have a competency in a particular area. Mh.


And we we may do it well, but yet it drains the life of us. Mh. And that's still the thing that we need to get off of our plate as much as possible. Because... You can do something.


Doesn't mean you should do it right? Exactly. Exactly. IIII coach people, you know, from time to time that are really good at a lot of things. But even though they're good at a lot of things.


Doesn't mean they need to do all of those things. And and there's things that feel me up and there's things that I do pretty pretty well that drain me as much as I can get those off of my plate. I I don't wanna preach all the time. That's a That's a trainer for me. It it sucks the life out of me whenever I...


Whenever I preach. I I feel like I do a decent job at at it. But once a month, you know, twice a month is max for me. I don't wanna do it more than that. You know, which, you know, allows me to focus on things that that really fill me up, like, behind the scenes work that Mh.


You know, keeping the wheels turning and things of that nature that I really enjoy doing. Yeah. And and that that made me think of this too, you know, there's also the opportunity saying, no, doesn't mean shutting a door. I mean, sometimes saying no means you're opening a door for someone else that you know, is really good and gifted and called. And I think we should be door openers for others.


Right? If someone gives us an opportunity, and maybe it's not our thing particularly, we could, But, you know, why then being mindful, like, you know, but I do know this guy who's a great coach and leader... Like... So it's it's it's really a gift. I love to think that my know is not just the I'm shutting people off or out.


But my note is that I I wanna offer you someone that can do a job better than I could. You know? So it's it's just really an awesome part of being the kingdom of God. Is connecting connecting people together. We're not the whole body of christ.


Is a better relief. We're an arm or we're a lag. Yeah. We're a finger or whatever. Yeah And just enjoy our part, but...


Yeah. Let's connect the whole body. Help you checks out. So a person... Let's just say a person has done a really, not so good of a job.


In adhering to these things. They're doing things that they shouldn't be doing. It's emotionally draining them. They're... They've done this for way too long.


They've they've actually moved past the point of burnout And now they're kinda in a crisis. Mh. If you have a pastor who calls you who is in crisis? What do you what do you tell this person to help them out of that crisis? Well, this is what pastors don't want to hear, but it's the reality.


You cannot heal when you're staying in everything that's causing you to be burnout out. And and you're still gonna try to do that and create healing. It if you're that... If you've gone to that point, you... You're going to have to step away.


Now, whether it's for 3 days or 3 months, you know, that has to be determined based on the circumstances, but to even take a deep breath, look around, think of your family create plan, it takes a little bit of time and you need to be outside or take a walk on the beach or go to dinner with your spouse, you need to hear from other people that can speak with them and into your life and situation. So when I when I get administer during in crisis, they're our first plan is to create space. So who do you know that you could call who who do you trust that you could have them take care of your church for x number of days. So I mean, you gotta create breathing room. If if you've gotten into this point, you're not gonna bounce back staying in the difficult situation you're in.


Yeah. And I think the other thing that people can understand is they don't have... It doesn't have to be all or nothing. You know, maybe they're... They know, like, hey, If I don't make some changes, this is like gonna be good.


But instead of, you know, I'm gonna resign the church and go work with the public library because that seems quite peaceful. You know? Yeah. Well, take some baby steps. You know, don't try to go from 1 to 10 overnight.


Just go from 1 to 1 and a half. You know, what is a baby you could do? What is 1 small thing you could do today. To take some pressure off, create some breathing room. What is something you can say no to that isn't gonna turn the world upside down because you did this.


You know, you're not out to create more chaos. So, you know, what can you do to help yourself with little baby steps? Yeah. How how important it is is it for that individual crisis to? Find somebody that can walk this with them, not just to come take over their church for a few days, but to actually be there with them at a counselor their pastor or Mh.


Or or somebody they trust, maybe a organizational official or, you know, whatever. And and if if they don't have anybody in their life. They don't know of anybody they could call do... Is there resources among the Upc that that... I know I'm putting you on the spot here.


I didn't ask you this originally, but just... I'm just thinking of the person that just feels hopeless and doesn't have that. Well, for the person that feels hopeless, I think you... They've got to absolutely reach out to someone in a better place with a little... You know, like, maybe their press, their pastor, the district's superintendent, you know, to find out locally what resources.


What did they have there as well as, you know, what could happen within in the the. But before we get to that, so 10 years ago, I noticed study on pastors, a research study. And what and and I'm not gonna go into the details of the study, but some of the findings were amazing. 1 of the things that built resiliency, like the key thing. There were several things, but 1 of the key things was that resilient pastors have is they have a network of support.


Their ability to bounce back in tough times is directly linked to this network of support, not 1 person, not a best friend or even just leaning on seeing counselor store occasionally, but they created a network. So this... Mh if one's not available, other sources are. So, you know, yes, we look at the spouse you know, if you're in your spouse are not in a good place, then you need to work on your marriage because you can't keep running full steam ahead, while everything's falling apart at home, You know? Right.


If you, you know, you need to parent well, you need to have relationships with your children. Those are all... That's hurting your network of support. They they need to know they matter. You know, that they...


They're important. You know, I have a best friend. She's absolutely. She makes me laugh, like, nobody else. She's also in ministry and understands the ministry life, and so we can she can normalize some of the things for me.


She challenges me. She makes me wanna be a better person. But I have friends, I have, you know, my colleagues at work. I mean, they're so brilliant. They're amazing.


You know? And just just chatting with them is inspiring. But I know if I was not in a good place. I could say to and you 1 of them like, hey. Help me think this through.


So however, however you do it, or the listener does it, you have to think network of support. I need a pastor. I need a mentor. I need role models, Not everyone, is gonna have a mentor that they can talk to on a weekly basis. But we do have role models that we can look at and say, I wanna learn from that person I wanna take this.


I wanna how I wanna include this in my life. It's But surprisingly, you know, here I am counselor for doing this study. And the 1 thing that is most likely not to happen is for leaders is they do not go to counseling. They are so busy providing the counseling that they don't seek it for themselves. Yeah.


And, you know, as a counselor, I'm just done by that. Like, who wouldn't wanna go and have this un undeveloped attention while you pour out your car. Like, we're else in the world did you get this. Right? And we wanna be vulnerable and just share...


What clinton in a safe place, you know, but I think once people have a good experience with counseling and they see the benefit. They've are more likely, but let's just be honest, You know, we've got all these reasons. And I get them. Like, I had someone in my life for years and years and he he recently retired. And I just felt, like, oh, my, goodness.


I know I gotta find. You know, I I wanted someone for supervision as well as to talk through my own stuff. And and you look at and, okay. Well, you know, I'm want someone who understands who I am as an apostolic very important when I talk about hearing from God. I don't want them to, you know, try to put me on medication that I'm hearing voices.


You know? I wanted to understand who I am as an apostolic. But then, it's Oh, my goodness. I don't wanna run into him at general conference after having just shared my my deepest dark darkest secrets? You know, what I would even be able to look at them?


So it is hard? Who do I trust? Who do I... Who do I pick and and remembering that when you go to see counselor work, they they may be doing an intake with you, but you're interviewing them. Like, if there's not a good connection, you, you know, that doesn't mean it's a failure.


It just means like, well, I need to... I need to to interview a couple of counts where to see who my best bet is gonna be. Yeah. But I think having a godly counselor or my counselor was not at apostolic. But my counts are west spirit filled very biblical based godly person.


And so I think you gotta find that for yourself, and that unfortunately, that takes work. It takes time and and intention to do and But and and and you're if you're not going to do that, you you cannot avoid having a that of the court. You've got to have that if you're going to bounce back in ministry. Yeah. There's no not no doubt that that community with others.


That relational support. That's what's gonna feel you. That's what's gonna, you know, that's the individuals that are gonna help you out of a bind when you're on... When you're in a bind. So kind of moving full circle with this I mean, the goal would be, and we talked about this a little bit earlier, the goal would be to, you know, sort of have some proactive measures where we don't get there, where we don't get to the crisis, and we don't get to the...


Even the fillings of burnout. Right. So, you know, I would call that emotional resilience. We want some emotional resilience that's, you know, to handle the crazy demands of ministry and leadership you know, over the long term? What what advice could you could you give us to help leaders develop that emotional resilience?


Well, things don't happen in the vacuum. And so... We we really need to be aware of what is not going right in our lives and in multiple areas. So Mh. I I believe in wholeness.


So there's... You know, and I've talked about this a lot probably. Anybody who knows we knows Gonna talk about. 5 domains of wellness. You know?


And that is, we, you know, the physical, the psychological, emotional, domain, the social relational domain, and then the professional, sterile domains. Those are the 5 domain, because if you if you don't have them, if you're not working in all of those, you can't just be super strong in the ministry domain, like, my professional life is thriving, but all the other domains are, you know, wreck. You know, we we are whole. We are 1 person, how I do relationship with my family, if how I do relationship with the Lord, how I do relationship with others is evidence. You know?


So we tend to if we're doing really well without other people. Usually, we're moving into I'm doing really well without other people and that I'm doing really well without the lord, because he calls us to loving people. He calls us to being engage just the body of christ. So if I'm not engaging with that, with other people, I'm probably leaving him out a lot too. So I do believe in the check ins So I have an assessment sheet.


I'd be happy to share it with you if you wanna put it in the notes section and they could listeners to use it. Wondering thing I use all the time. And I'll just go through it And right, I hate that assessment sheet so much sometimes because so it really, like, I'm going through it, you know, and some areas I'm, like, 0333. Aren't I wonderful. And then it's like some sections.


I'm like, 111, and if it had a negative, you know, on that. I'd probably be in the negative sense, But that is such a great reminder like, yes yes, you know, hey, this week, you're gonna focus on this, you're gonna bring that number up a little bit, you know? Yeah. Because in the physical so much happens, you know, if you're not moving, you don't have the good chemicals bathing your brain. So even taking a lot, can be so good for your mind, your mental, your emotional, balance, moving.


You know, it also gives you some red flags there. Like, if you see certain things that, you know, are check in the low zone, then you're like, oh, wow, If I'm not feeling well, I'm not doing well physically. This is soon going to impact. A lot of, you know, what we've experiencing emotionally, is because physically we're not doing well. You know, You can't candy bars all day and feel emotionally on top of the world, you know, because there...


1 impacts the other, You don't, And we have to have help I have to have I have to be in good standing in my relationships with God and others. And then I have to be growing and my... I have, you know, 1 of the things about burnout going back to burnout is a lot of them people burnout because they feel like they're asked to do jobs they're not equipped to do our experience to do. And so 1 of the things in that domain is, are you taking on jobs that you're not equipped to do, So what are you getting into what's your plan are you gonna go school and get some mixed experience you're gonna go to a seminar take a workshop listening to a podcast. What are you gonna do better for yourself or or delegated it.


Sure. You look at Moses, you know, he operated it out of his strength. He delegated for his weakness I'm not a great speaker. Again he knew what who he was not. I am not a great speaker.


Delegated that to Aaron for his or God. Yeah. Delegated for his weakness. Why aren't we doing more of that? You know?


Yeah. So I think I think I I do use the assessment who really helped me track who is something going a little sideways there. I do feel... This this is an emotional health. Assessment, like, a few questions yes...


Mental wellness, it's just... Mental wellness or... It's an assessment for looking at into 5 domains that if you're tracking pretty well in each of those domains. Not perfect. We're not perfect.


But Yeah. You... It gives you an opportunity to see because if those 5 domains are tended to... You're going to experience mental wellness unless, you know, that's just something that's way outside of the box happens some kind of trauma. Yeah.


Yeah. And people have to people have to assessments are tremendous. I love assessment. I've got my own Christian leader self assessment on on my website. You know, we can learn a lot about ourselves by doing assessments.


And but then people have to get in there and do something about it. They've gotta get in service where they're learning and and, and actually anticipating and improving those parts that they need to improve. And that's what is so shocking. We do not lack information. We lack application.


You know, we we are overloaded with information. People probably could answer our your questions as well as I can with, you know, my education experience. They know. But wow, that... What am I gonna do now that I know?


And I I think that we're responsible for the... What we know. Yeah, we're... We have that knowledge, I think god expects us to do something with it. Is that just gonna keep blessing.


Effort that we he didn't ask us to get involved with anyway. He loves us. But at some point, he's like, wow, you know, you can to make some changes Well, anything else you wanna say about work life balance or emotional health or anything that we've talked about so far, I've got 1 more question I wanna ask you, but but before we leave that topic. Well, I I think, you know... My main concern is application.


I think people hear this. Mh. You know, probably Go. Know so much about it. There's never gonna be a convenient time.


There's never gonna be the right day. There's never gonna be, like, oh, you know, on Monday. I'm gonna do this. That's like starting a diet every Monday right? On Monday, I'm the weekend I'm gonna feed.


If the lord is prompting you right now, and you have you have the warning flags are flying and it's, like, be aware things are not going well. Then I think today the day, you gotta say, I need to... I need to stop, and I need to reevaluate because hearing 1 more podcast and doing nothing with it is not gonna save you. It's not gonna salvage it where you're at. And god didn't...


Call you to salvage situation, he caused you to fullness and ministry and life and thriving. You know? And so if it's not going well, then really that getting un stuck is is very important. That's that's good stuff. Very good.


So just shifting with 1 last question, I'm I'm just curious and we'll end on this question, but outside of your... Prayer and devotion. What's 1 ritual or a routine that helps you doctor Cindy Miller do what you do? Well, I have 1 that I really love and I do it a lot. I've actually taught my grandchildren to do they just don't know they're doing it.


They just think we're cut... Have a good conversation. But, 1 thing that I did that I found was very important because we do wear a lot of hats that have a lot of different things going. Is the practice that I I use calls closing the loop. I found years and years ago that, and it is part of theological reflection just by different name.


But I found that I I was in the moment, but I I was, you, in my church minister, but I was already thinking about the event happening next week, and that conference I I'm leaving for on Thursday, and is never truly able to enjoy the moment that God had given me. I enjoyed it, but I was already down the road. The ladies coming whatever. And so the lord gave me this and I the peace that brings my mind. So what hap...


What I do is, like, I'll I'll do this that kinda at the end of the day or at the end of a week or on Sunday with my family, And, but I always do this after a big event, a conference or a class or something that was particularly taking my time in energy and I was in empty out over. And that is I look at it, and I just bring it to the lord. I sit in his present. And that might be on the airplane, but it's okay. You know, I I just know.


Like, Lord, I just wanna be with loan with you in this airplane full of people. I'm along with you right now. And I want to just think about all the good that happened this week during class. And thank you for this moment. I...


And so I just bring all the the wow moments, the god moments when I felt like he, you know, anointed me or equip me or something went really well, and I just, like, can express my gratitude, my appreciation to him for all of that. That we also have moments that didn't go so great, you know, and we're hard on ourselves and we room date over the negatives or, you know, Our like trips going up to the platform. Or, you know, I I said that, And I didn't mean to say that. And I used this words for that 1, whatever. Because we're we're really self conscious a lot of times.


And so then I'll just bring to him, like, Lord, this happened. I'm so disappointed. And this happened. I felt like, I wasn't at my desk. I didn't give it my best that day.


This this... You know, and I just bring everything. You know what? Right, I can't come back and change any of it. And rum on it isn't gonna help 1 thing so I gonna change it.


But I can bring it to the lord, and I can say Lord, and and whatever I'm responsible for I need to fix it If I didn't spend enough time for preparing, that's on me. You know, but Lord, here's all my disappointment. Here's here's where... What didn't go right, I pray. I just give it to the lord I'm giving it all to you.


I can't change it. I wanna learn from it. I wanna do better, you know, or if it was... Other people are that, other people's stuff, Lord, I just... I forgive that person, you know, for what they said.


I release that person from that certain behavior. And when we travel, you on, you know, it happens. People have different ways of interacting. Yeah. So I can pray and release that to the lord.


But then I I have a plan. But then it's like, okay. What will I do different next time? Lord is there anything I need to think about that I'll do different next time? And again, because I write things down, I don't want it my brain then I can say, okay.


Well, I need to do these 3 3 things different, I'll jot them down. And when I get back to my master planner, I'll make notes. If I'm teaching that class again or a conference around that topic again or whatever. And then I just kinda sell it was like, thank you more for giving me this opportunity. Thank you so much.


And it doesn't take a long time. It's not You don't need pen and paper even you'd... You know, I just kinda, like, I just wanna be in routine. Yeah. And and then I just...


Routine. My mind is released to to go to the next thing. Yeah. So you're you're celebrating, you're you're celebrating the winds, you're sort of grieving the losses. Mh.


You're you're you're reflecting on what you can do differently. Mh. And you're thinking the Lord for the whole. Yeah. Process of it all.


Yeah. Just see To stars the Lord. This to be in his presence just to know him and that he allows us these opportunities wow. Yeah. I I would definitely...


When we're done, I'm gonna be writing that down because that's something I need to implement in my life as well. That's a tremendous routine that you have that I think we'll actually... Like you said, close the loop of mh of a weekend. I I don't celebrate enough. I may reflect on the losses and and make changes, but I don't celebrate enough.


And I don't think the lord enough for the good things that have happened. And even the even the tough things that have happened. Mh. And that's... No.


You don't grab. Whether it's sacred or secular research on on link, gratitude and health, you know, and just peace and less anxiety, all of that, You know, And sure I feel like that's biblical. You know, God who created us that'd be thankful, You know, he gave us all this and we're like, oh, that's just to make us nice people. No. Is to make us healthy.


Yeah. Know. So I I really think that bringing that gratitude the expressions that a thankful and appreciation. I love that. So important.


I love that. Well, if people wanna connect with you online, I I think the primary way would be. To listen to your podcast. Let's talk podcast. Work where should you guys find that at?


Well, it's through the ladies ministry, Upc ladies ministry. It's produced by reflections Magazine So I I know on... That's on social media, if you go to the Upc reflections for the ladies magazine. They'll have the link to the podcast there. It's on...


I think Spotify Apple, it's out there. We're having... So much fun with it, and I really... I I really am excited about we've got some future things coming that I I it's really bringing me joy. You know, It's exciting.


I'll put a link in the show notes for people to be able to find that more easily. What about? Your your book? You have 5 books. Is there 1 in particular that that maybe you could highlight here for a moment?


Well, I'm going to be doing some work out of the book. Let's talk. What understanding yourself loving others. It's kind of a a little bit of an older book, but, it's it's 1 of those. You know, it's just it's just really the the...


What I talk about all the time. It's life, understand the life, but across multiple seasons and ages and stages, ways of thinking. And so I... I'm actually wanting to bring that back in into a little bit more work with it in the let's talk podcast. I'm excited about doing that and linking that book with the podcast.


I just, we did some revisions on my book. I don't wanna divorce. That's that's been fun. Where, you know, kind of bringing that back to life again, bringing that. It you used a lot in small groups, so that's fun.


Yeah. I... You know what? III just like to think we have a lot of resources. You know, I know there's great stuff out there, You know?


And and you can... You... There's so much information material, but I like apostolic resources. I want... I like to know that the person that I'm reading from, you know, has an experience with the lord that they can identify with me and I can identify them.


Absolutely. Well, Doctor Miller, thank you. Thank you so much. For joining us today. I greatly appreciate you yourself our audience.


Gonna love this. So thank you thank so much fun. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. We'll have to have you back sometime.


Let's do it. For And so this concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin. Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian leader made simple podcast.


Copyright © 2024 Ryan Franklin. All rights reserved.

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